Wis to everything?

[Cedrass]

I've been interested in the last couple of days to try and do an other Swordsage, only this time I'll plan him out so he doesn't utterly suck. Right now my group and I are playing a lot of 25 point buy, and since it's really not a lot of point, I'm wondering if there's way to get Wis to pretty much anything?

Most importantly though, I'd want Wis to Damage and Attack. Swordsage gives Wis to AC and with some Diamond Mind maneuvers I'll cover for my Fort and Ref saves.

Pretty much any book is ok with me, and I'd also like as little multiiclassing as possible.

Thanks a lot!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Wis to attack via Intuitive Attack. Only applies to unarmed strikes and simple weapons.

[Goatman_Ted]

Person_Man was throwing a Paladin/Sanctified Mind/Warmind build around a while ago. Had potential for most games and was very elegant. Used Serenity and Intuitive Attack for nice results.

Anyway, obligatory link:

LordKiwi's X Stat to Y Bonus

[Cedrass]

Dare I ask where Intuitive Attack is? And would it stack with Weapon Finesse? Or it replaces the stat in question?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It's from BoED

[Goatman_Ted]

Dare I ask where Intuitive Attack is? And would it stack with Weapon Finesse? Or it replaces the stat in question?

It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds, for whatever reason.
And since it replaces your strength bonus, it doesn't stack.

[Cedrass]

Thanks a lot guys! I couldn't find anything to get my Wis to Damage, but I guess AC and Attack is enough . Plus I'll probably go Shadow Hand route so, I'll get that little feat that gives Dex on Damage.

[SilentNight]

Baffling defense from ToB is a nice little stance that replaces your AC with a sense motive (Wis based) check. Cheaper and easier to boost than normal AC too.

[Eldariel]

Intuitive Attack is one half of the puzzle. Swordsage's "Discipline Focus: Insightful Strike" is the other. Focus on a school with lots of Strikes you're going to use; Diamond Mind is a great option (especially if you dip a level of Barbarian to use Pounce with Bounding Assault), for example, as is Tiger Claw.

Diamond Mind specifically shines because of all the strikes that involve multiple attacks (and Insightful Strike-maneuvers getting Wis to damage too improving those two by a bunch). Shadow Hand and Desert Wind offer passable options, but neither works nearly as well as the two former, especially due to the lack of usable Charges and multiattack Strikes (note, when focusing on Wis, you'll want to be Striking exclusively).

Later on you'll get a second Discipline Focus: Insightful Strike (on 12), so you can encompass Strikes from another school. That said, you can easily focus on Strikes only from one school and take Boosts, Counters and Stances from the others (Setting Sun, Tiger Claw & Desert Wind are all good for this; Stone Dragon you probably wouldn't take much from anyways outside possibly Roots of the Mountain and Mountain Hammer, which you don't really need Wis to damage for anyways as you use it to break objects with DR and as it ignores DR, you don't really need much damage anyways as none of it is ignored).

Note that Intuitive Attack only works with Simple weapons and Unarmed Strikes. Makes Unarmed Swordsage more attractive, but if you want to stick to standard Swordsage, you'll have to scrounge up a list of simple weapons for the job: Heavy Mace, Longspear & Dagger have you covered nicely. Note that Wis-focus actually works rather well for TWF as you get to add full Wis to TWF anyways; you'll just need enough Dex for the feats (hell, you could pick up Shadow Blade and get Dex & Wis to damage with Wis for attacks).


I used this synergy, among others, to a great effect on my Gestalt Warrior Arena character Alya Montane. Of course, being a shapeshifter, she didn't do the whole "Focus all on Wis"-thing, but Wis was added as damage to almost every attack she ever made; in other words, this design works for what you're after.

EDIT: Baffling Defense is a Counter, btw. Still handy though.

Also, the downside to all this is that you need to be level 4 before any of this works. So if playing from level 1, forget about it and just make a Druid (level 2 before you get Wis to AC, level 3 before you get Wis to attacks, level 4 before you get Wis to damage).

In fact, this SS would use a very similar stat spread to a Druid: Max Wis, some Dex and Con, everything else is trivial.

[Cedrass]

Hmm... I'm not convinced. Sure there's Insightful Strike and the Greater one that allow you do deal nice damage, but I only count 2 Strikes that allow you to make multiple attacks (Time Stand Still and Avalanche of Blades). And when adding Wis to damage via Discipline Focus, the best you can do is actually do a full-attack, and that would be 2 maneuvers in Diamond Mind.

Not saying there's more options in other disciplines, just saying I don't see the advantage in focusing on Diamond Mind. In fact, I was planning on doing quite the opposite. Focusing on Shadow Hand, and using Diamond Mind boost and counters. And a bit of Setting Sun of course.

But I'm not that much experienced with ToB as it's my second character and I bet I've got a lot to learn about this little gem of a book.

[Eldariel]

Hmm... I'm not convinced. Sure there's Insightful Strike and the Greater one that allow you do deal nice damage, but I only count 2 Strikes that allow you to make multiple attacks (Time Stand Still and Avalanche of Blades). And when adding Wis to damage via Discipline Focus, the best you can do is actually do a full-attack, and that would be 2 maneuvers in Diamond Mind.

Bounding Assault works fine if you have that Barbarian-dip for Pounce. It's treated as a Charge and it's my favorite way of starting a fight, hence the suggestion of the school (if you have Pounce, you can make a full attack while charging). Nightmare Blades are also superb and you get stuff like Emerald Razor et co. Nightmare Blades effectively act as full attacks due to multiplying the damage (by about as many attacks you'd be making anyways).

Not saying there's more options in other disciplines, just saying I don't see the advantage in focusing on Diamond Mind. In fact, I was planning on doing quite the opposite. Focusing on Shadow Hand, and using Diamond Mind boost and counters. And a bit of Setting Sun of course.

Shadow Hand is another solid option. It's definitely the second choice for a Diamond Mind Swordsage too, simply because of all the Wisdom-based save-or-X maneuvers the school offers. It just offers no ways to do more than 1 attack, and nothing that multiplies damage, which is why I'd sorta prefer Diamond Mind.

I guess I'm just trying to say you'll be ok either way. I'd definitely go Diamond Mind first for the earlier access to full attacks though (level 7 for Bounding Assault, level 8 for the Barbarian-dip; just in time for that first iterative!).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade = Dex to attack and damage. Also remember that Unarmed is both a Shadow Hand and a Tiger Claw favored weapon.

Go with an Unarmed variant. Pick up Snap Kick later on for free shots.

Strength is a complete dump stat. Anyone attempting to Grapple with you will end up seriously hurt with a mere splash into Setting Sun. Assuming you don't Shadow Blink out of it anyways.

Con, you don't want negatives, but really should be seen as a second-tier stat

Dex, obviously, should be one of your highest stats

Int is, mostly, a dump stat. Only reason why it isn't completely is skill points.

Wis is your other core stat, other than Dex, for obvious reasons.

Charisma is a dump stat.

So your stats should look something like this:

Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 11
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

That's a 25 point buy spread, should work well for you. Mind you, that is starting out, goodness knows how easy it is to pimp out from there.

Bypass DR on opponents with Shards of Granite, which should be doable by 9th level if you are careful. Plus, Stone Power = 10 points you ignore every turn for a -5 on all attacks. Since anything with a decent AC is going to be eating touch attacks anyways, this isn't a big hamper, and makes the monk's Ki Strike abilities wish they were this awesome.