[3.5] Incorporating Powerful/Slight Build in a humans-only world

[nefele]

High. :)
We're preparing for a humans-only (as far as player races are concerned) game, and we're adding a couple of non-human traits here and there, for flavor and a nice variety.

One is having the option of a Goliath's Powerful Build or a Kobold's Slight build (apart from normal, of course). However, to add some verisimilitude, we're thinking to strike a very important sentence from the description:
"if doing so is advantageous to the character".

If you're a really tall human and built like a bear, sure, you'll have an advantage in bull rushing and grappling etc, but it won't be so easy for you to hide or squeeze in tight places. Conversely, if you're a really short and thin little man, you'll be able to hide and squeeze wherever you want, but you're also easier to shove around.

What do you think? Does it make sense? Is it balanced? Am I missing something?

For example, the cases where size matters, according to the Powerful/Slight build entries, are grapple, bull rush, trip, resisting improved grab and swallow whole, hide and squeeze. Is there something else I can't think of right now, and which would complicate matters?

Also, space and reach are explicitly exempt from that rule, so maybe we should keep it this way.

Thanks. :)

P.S. - I am not the DM, we are simply bringing suggestions to the DM for now.

[Sinfire Titan]

Don't. It may be realistic, but the difference it makes is so minimal to actual game play that there's really no reason to include it. House rules are meant to prevent game breakers and make things work the way they were intended, not arbitrarily add a detrimental value to a single ability. It's nothing the player's are going to keep track of, as it has so little impact on their character.


Best not to waste the time.

[JackMage666]

I would say make it cost the Bonus Human Feat at least. I mean, if it's a Human Only campain, it might help to make characters a bit different from each other.

[overduegalaxy]

I would say make it cost the Bonus Human Feat at least. I mean, if it's a Human Only campain, it might help to make characters a bit different from each other.

But that would mean everyone is either exceptionally tall, or exceptionally short. However, it could work if you added the "Superior ____" feats from Dragon Magazine (somewhere) as options for normal-sized players.

[nefele]

Don't. It may be realistic, but the difference it makes is so minimal to actual game play that there's really no reason to include it.

It is? I don't know, I thought a +4 to hide is pretty important for a sneaker and a +4 to grapple is pretty important for a grappler. And, knowing the DM, more uses will come up, for better or for worse (like escaping through a narrow skylight).

I would say make it cost the Bonus Human Feat at least. I mean, if it's a Human Only campain, it might help to make characters a bit different from each other.

That's the idea. :) I don't know about the feat cost, I figured that since penalties and advantages go together, it won't be necessary. But that's not up to me.

But that would mean everyone is either exceptionally tall, or exceptionally short.

We don't mean to make it obligatory. I guess if it's too good, everyone will want one and we'll end up with a very funny-looking party - and I don't mean that in a good way.

That feat cost wasn't a bad idea after all. Besides, I think there's already a regional feat from FR that gives, effectively, powerful build to the character. Maybe the DM can design something similar.

What do the "superior ____" feats do? I know Superior Vision, Taste, Touch etc from Dragon, but I don't think they are relevant.


Thanks for all your answers. :)

[overduegalaxy]

What do the "superior ____" feats do? I know Superior Vision, Taste, Touch etc from Dragon, but I don't think they are relevant.

That's what I was referring to, actually. Little bonuses for characters who don't want to be tall or short, that aren't overpowering, and make them slightly mechanically different than the rest of the party.

[Sinfire Titan]

It is? I don't know, I thought a +4 to hide is pretty important for a sneaker and a +4 to grapple is pretty important for a grappler. And, knowing the DM, more uses will come up, for better or for worse (like escaping through a narrow skylight).

+4 is easy to get though. That's 100gp for a +2 to a Hide check, and skill synergy gets another +2 (the latter is free). Even Skill Focus+Stealthy gives you a better hide check.

The Grapple check can also be boosted via Soulmelds into obscenity. Totemists almost outrank Druids when it comes to grappling (+70 before spells at level 20 for a 20th level Totemist with only 2 magic items and a single Soulmeld, the Druid has to use Wild Shape and spells to get even that close, so those same spells and effects could boost the Totemist into the early hundreds).

Skills are so easy to boost, it isn't funny. The thing that matters for Powerful Build and Slight Build is the size difference when referencing grappling (you are considered one size larger, allowing you to grapple Huge enemies easily, and Kobolds can slip out of grapples from Large creatures due to being one size smaller), and even that can be negated through other means.

Furthermore, the benefits you are talking about apply to 3 races, only 2 of which are even considered worthwhile (Half-Giants suck in comparison to the Goliath, and Kobolds are broken as-is thanks to all of the cheese they can get away with). 3 races, out of roughly one hundred. Not a very effective house rule when it's that narrow, is it?

Now, if you were house ruling that other races could get Powerful Build or Slight Build (such as Halflings, Gnomes, and Dwarves for the latter, and Orcs/Half-Orcs/Something else for the former), then it would hold some merit. I still wouldn't consider implementing it though.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Furthermore, the benefits you are talking about apply to 3 races, only 2 of which are even considered worthwhile (Half-Giants suck in comparison to the Goliath, and Kobolds are broken as-is thanks to all of the cheese they can get away with). 3 races, out of roughly one hundred. Not a very effective house rule when it's that narrow, is it?

Now, if you were house ruling that other races could get Powerful Build or Slight Build (such as Halflings, Gnomes, and Dwarves for the latter, and Orcs/Half-Orcs/Something else for the former), then it would hold some merit. I still wouldn't consider implementing it though.

If you read the OP's post you will see that they are playing a human only Game. So hes wondering if these would be balanced.

I would say no but thats just me.

Don't forget though that there is jotunbred or what not which kinda grants powerfull build.

[Devils_Advocate]

3.5's size modifiers are needlessly coarse-grained. The modifier for grappling, tripping, bull rushing, disarming, etc. goes from -4 to 0 to +4 as size categories change. I say just let it range anywhere from, say, -3 to +3 for humans in your game. Simple. Just work out what ranges of height and weight correspond to which.

The opposite number is your modifier on Hide checks and adds to the penalty for squeezing. So, for example:

Great big guy: +3 to all that tactical stuff (Overrun, Sunder, etc.), -3 to Hide, -7 penalty to AC and attack rolls when squeezing

Tiny little guy: -3 to tactical maneuvers, +3 to Hide, -1 to AC and attack rolls while squeezing

[Riffington]

If you're getting rid of the "when advantageous", why not just go whole-hog and actually make them small or large (tall)? Not like you have much else in the way of alternately-sized humanoids, so it shouldn't mess up much... and the ability to (for example) have your tiny fellow ride a pony isn't exactly bad.

The only thing is, make sure that large doesn't include reach (otherwise it's worth way more than a feat). I believe 3.0 had a tall category of largeness that took up two squares (stacked atop one another) but only one square on a 2d map, and didn't have reach. If not, that's what you should do anyway.

[nefele]

3.5's size modifiers are needlessly coarse-grained. The modifier for grappling, tripping, bull rushing, disarming, etc. goes from -4 to 0 to +4 as size categories change. I say just let it range anywhere from, say, -3 to +3 for humans in your game. Simple. Just work out what ranges of height and weight correspond to which.

That's a very good point. It poses some questions about the mechanics (how do we select it? does it deserve a whole feat if it's only a +/-1 or 2? etc.) but it makes sense. I'll propose it, and see what happens.

Thanks again, people.

[hamishspence]

Powerful Build has a human-only feat approximating it in Forgotten Realms- Jotenbrud in Races of Faerun. Regional feat for Illuskans.

It includes the "Treat as large whenever advantageous to you" but it doesn't include "Wield Large weapons"- thats limited to the actual Powerful Build trait.

So, seems reasonable.

[derfenrirwolv]

Powerful build is an INSANELY overpowered feat.

Its gives +4 to Bullrush, Overrun, grapple, trip, disarm, sunder, and (if you're using the weapon version) more bonus damage than weapon specilization. Its 7 feats in one. Its almost as bad as the unnerfed spellcasting prodigy.

[raptor1056]

Powerful build is an INSANELY overpowered feat.

Its gives +4 to Bullrush, Overrun, grapple, trip, disarm, sunder, and (if you're using the weapon version) more bonus damage than weapon specilization. Its 7 feats in one. Its almost as bad as the unnerfed spellcasting prodigy.

This, this, this. My DM wound up essentially having to choose between monsters that would make my wizard crazy good, or the Orc I was buffing, who had powerful build, crazy crazy good. This campaign was not very fun at this point where it came to combat.

[Chronos]

Taking out the "where advantageous" wouldn't actually matter much, since the character types who would be taking these feats wouldn't care much about the advantages to begin with. A hulking brute of a melee fighter probably doesn't care if he can't sneak as well, and a shifty, sneaky thief doesn't care if he can't grapple as well (if he ever ends up in a grapple, he's going to use Escape Artist to get out, anyway, not a grapple check).

[Sinfire Titan]

Powerful build is an INSANELY overpowered feat.

Its gives +4 to Bullrush, Overrun, grapple, trip, disarm, sunder, and (if you're using the weapon version) more bonus damage than weapon specilization. Its 7 feats in one. Its almost as bad as the unnerfed spellcasting prodigy.

Overpowered when compared to other core-only feats. And guess what? This feat is most helpful to melee classes. Tzeentch knows they need the help.


Besides, WotC all ready printed a feat that gives Clerics the same benefits (and a +4 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls) whenever they damn well want it. It's called Animal Devotion. Why can't a melee class have something nice for a change?


As for the Weapon Specialization thing, the only times Powerful Build is better than Weapon Spec is when the weapon in question has a base damage of 1d12 or 2d6, in which case it changes the damage to 3d6, (a maximum of 6 extra points of damage prior to crits). When compared to something like the Falchion, or a Longsword, the extra damage is an average 1 point increase, maximum of 2 (4 for the Falchion, as it goes from 2d4 to 2d6, I think), and a minimum equal to the base weapon damage. It actually just increases the maximum and average, and usually doesn't give you any control over the matter (1d6 is 1d6, not 6 every 6 rolls; probability comes into play when you actually roll the dice). Besides, why shouldn't melee-based classes be good at dealing damage/bull rushes/tripping/disarming/grapples ( I leave out Sundering for a good reason)?



In short, why can't the non-casters have nice things?