is it worth it to take a prestige class?

[darkblust]

So i'm playing my level 6 fire based beguiler,and i was wondering if I should take the prestige class dragon disciple instead of another beguiler.what do u guys think i should do?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Here's a build I saw on Charop contest.

Human

Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Rainbow Servant4/Contemplative1/Rainbow Servant6/Divine Oracle1/Sacred Exorcist1/Church Inquisitor1

Feats:

1:
Knowledge Devotion
Heighten Spell

3:
Sculpt Spell

5:
Silent Spell

6:
Mindsight

9:
Rapid Metamagic

10:
Extend Spell (from Planning Domain, gotten from Contemplative)

12:
Persist Spell

15:
Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell

18:
Extra Turning

Domains:
Air
Law
Good
Planning (Grants Time Stop!)
Oracle
Inquisition

All Cleric spells added to spell list.

Inventory:
Bead of Karma
Ring of Arcane Might
Ring of Wizardry IV
Belt of Magnificence
Orange Ioun Stone
Wand of Celerity

[Hat-Trick]

Optimizers will say no. If you want to, go ahead, but if you want to be as effective as possible, no. Don't. Dragon disciple is more for meleers who dabble in magic.

[kamikasei]

In general, it is often worth it to take "a" prestige class. Obviously this depends on the prestige class being good, and the sacrifice of normal class levels being acceptable. The usual example is taking a full-casting PrC in place of wizard levels, as you keep your greatest strength (casting), gain whatever (presumably good) class abilities the PrC gets, and lose only the non-casting class features of the wizard, which aren't too interesting.

Beguiler, on the other hand, does have class features. And Dragon Disciple is a pretty poor PrC. So no, from a power perspective, it's definitely not worth it - class features aside, you're losing out on full casting, which is Not Good At All.

What do you actually want to do with the character, and what's the power level of the game? Maybe some other way to achieve a similar result can be found.

...How are you playing a fire-based Beguiler?

[The Glyphstone]

Beguiler is one of the handful of classes that are actually quite good taken all the way to 20. That combined with the general medicoreness of DD - a fighter class that tries to pretend its a caster class, and accomplishes neither - is rarely a good option. I'd stick with Beguiler myself, lots of cool goodies to acquire.

[Optimystik]

Optimizers will say no.

Actually, they say yes. In particular, one level of Mindbender will not delay your casting progression and will allow you to put off Advanced Learning for one level so you can grab higher level spells with it.

[kamikasei]

Actually, they say yes.

Optimizers might say "yes, Beguilers can get benefit from at least one level of one particular prestige class". I doubt many would say "Beguilers taking Dragon Disciple is anything other than a bad idea".

[darkblust]

i have a wand of fireball,which i use allthe time,flaming whip swords,gloves of burning hands,my armor is designed like fire,and my character tends to enjoy playing with fire and enhoys the warmth a little too much....

Well,i guess dragon disciple isnt the class for me,but what would be a good prestige class for my character do u think?

oh yeah,are dm is pretty generous with skills,and we get about double what the normal amount of money/magic is normalim probably the strongest in the party,other then the durned ranger....

[wadledo]

I am confused by your lack of syntax, capitalization and use of the space bar.

Other than that, your character isn't going to be getting many fire spells. Ever. So it might be a good idea if you switch to a blaster sorcerer, if your DM allows.

Other than that?
Mindbender.
If you really want the fire theme, a level in Sand Shaper would help with that somewhat, though it's only good for particular builds.

[Hat-Trick]

Doesn't sound optimized, so dragon disciple wouldn't be too bad. But the problem is it is a melee class masked as a caster class, as stated earlier. I'd do it for a fighter4/Sorc1 for flavor, but beguiler, not so much.

[darkblust]

Srry for the capitalization and suchi am geatly disgraced by it.

What books do mindbender and sandshaper come from?It probably won't be a problem,since my dm lets us use practically any books we can get our hands on

Have you tried a beguiler?There so fun to play,you should try one if you have'nt already.

[Goatman_Ted]

If you have the books Heroes of Horror or Sandstorm, each has a prestige class that can add a few fire- or heat-themed spells to your list (Fiend-Blooded and Sand Shaper, respectively).

You could also use Runestaves from the Magic Item Compendium or the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine to add some fire spells to your list.

But it really depends what you want to do. If you want to sneak around and shoot Fireballs out of a wand, Beguiler's a better choice than most.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

No love for the monstrously overpowered Charop beguiler?

[Starbuck_II]

Srry for the capitalization and suchi am geatly disgraced by it.

What books do mindbender and sandshaper come from?It probably won't be a problem,since my dm lets us use practically any books we can get our hands on

Have you tried a beguiler?There so fun to play,you should try one if you have'nt already.

Complete Arcane =Mindbender
Sandstorm= Sandshaper

I haven't played Beguiler. I think my bro has PHB 2, but I never really looked at it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Srry for the capitalization and suchi am geatly disgraced by it.

What books do mindbender and sandshaper come from?It probably won't be a problem,since my dm lets us use practically any books we can get our hands on

Have you tried a beguiler?There so fun to play,you should try one if you have'nt already.

If you like blasting, Warmage may be more suited to your tastes, as they are very similar to Beguilers, only more blasting and less sneaking. However, yes Beguiler can be extremely broken.

Mindbender is good because it lets you get Mindsight, which is the ultimate "I SEE YOU" ability. As previously mentioned, it also delays your Advanced Learning so you can pick up a higher level spell with it.

Rainbow Servant can be extremely broken at high levels, depending on how your GM rules the casting progression. There's a typo somewhere, because while the Text says "Casting every level", the table shows four levels that do not promote casting, which is crippling. The catch is the capstone, which adds ALL cleric spells to your spell list, which is more than simply broken, easily on par with any form of Polymorph shenanigans. So if you want to be a not-so-minor god at level 16, and your GM rules "Text Over Table", then go ahead and get into it.

[Zeta Kai]

No love for the monstrously overpowered Charop beguiler?

Well, you never said what your borrowed build actually does. CharOp builds are by-definition optimized, but without sitting there with a dozen splats open & following the progression, it's difficult to figure out what a build is optimized for. So, what does it do, anyway?

[kamikasei]

Beguilers are great, but it's pretty odd and against-the-grain for one to focus on fire - it doesn't really play to the class' strengths.

It's not really a prestige class you need, but a way to get fire spells onto your spells known, such as with Arcane Disciple. Then I might suggest Archmage - always a good class, though it won't be useful to you until higher levels - and at lower levels, the Firey Burst reserve feat (Complete Mage), which will let you blast people with fire all day long so long as you have one uncast fire spell of the appropriate level available. (I'm assuming that using a Runestaff to get the spell known the fuel the reserve feat would be classed as shenanigans of the highest order?)

Alternatively, or additionally, you could talk to your DM about homebrewing a template or feat or similar to do a couple of things - give you fire resistance or immunity, and/or add some fire spells to your list or give you a fire-based SLA. If he's willing to trade you a caster level or two for it, it'd be more straightforward than mucking about with Arcane Disciple or the like.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

*maybe not broken at some tables, but clearly the result of a lazy copy/paste job

The...portugese, maybe...version that came out had full-progression text and table.

[Goatman_Ted]

No love for the monstrously overpowered Charop beguiler?

That might have something to do with its illegality and rather generous interpretation of Rainbow Servant*.

*Regardless of whether it's balanced at some tables, the 10/10 casting is clearly a copy/paste mistake.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That might have something to do with its illegality and rather generous interpretation of Rainbow Servant*.

*Regardless of whether it's balanced at some tables, the 10/10 casting is clearly a copy/paste mistake.

Given that the Brazilian version has 10/10 casting on table and text, I'm inclined to say that the Rainbow Servant PrC's interpretation is correct.

Well, you never said what your borrowed build actually does. CharOp builds are by-definition optimized, but without sitting there with a dozen splats open & following the progression, it's difficult to figure out what a build is optimized for. So, what does it do, anyway?

Cast every cleric spell ever, spontaneously. And the domain spells. And you get the domain abilities.

[Gnorman]

Cast every cleric spell ever, spontaneously. And the domain spells. And you get the domain abilities.

Yeah, but then you're not really playing a Beguiler. You're playing some hideous abomination, an aborted attempt by the gods to combine the powers of arcane and divine magic into one horrendous whole, able to cast about miracles as if they were afterthoughts and subvert the entire point of entire priesthoods.

In other words: it's complete cheese.

[Xallace]

You could go Ultimate Magus (from Complete Mage) with your prep side focused on blasting?

Maybe not the most optimal idea, but you get to keep your beguiler spells and pick up some blasty wizard spells. Ambush folks, sew some illusory chaos, drop some burning death, scram.

I'm away from my book so I don't know if you can qualify for it, but Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle) combines spellcasting with Desert Wind maneuvers if you like, and that could help.

[skeeter_dan]

No love for the monstrously overpowered Charop beguiler?

What other people said plus it had absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question. The OP asks if he/she should have his/her Beguiler take the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Your automatic response was to copy and paste a cheesy, ludicrous build that you found on the CharOp boards. You neither answered the asked question nor did you provide any helpful information whatsoever.

As an answer to the OP...probably not. Dragon Disciple is not a great prestige class to begin with and it's definitely not designed with a Beguiler in mind. It's a melee class that pretends to be a caster class. A fighter with a sorcerer level or two might find it worthwhile or perhaps a bard, but a beguiler isn't ideal.

[TengYt]

Beguilers aren't really designed for blasting anyway. If you like using Fire, try a Sorceror or Warmage, you'll get better results.

[AslanCross]

PrCing can be a good idea depending the build you have in mind. However, Dragon Disciple doesn't improve any of the Beguiler's strengths.

[darkblust]

I guess i'l just keep with the old wand for now,the snapping capabilities are nice

[Doc Roc]

What other people said plus it had absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question. The OP asks if he/she should have his/her Beguiler take the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Your automatic response was to copy and paste a cheesy, ludicrous build that you found on the CharOp boards. You neither answered the asked question nor did you provide any helpful information whatsoever.

Actually, he did answer, from my perspective

It was a No, don't take that one, consider this.

Consider that he may just be quiet, or in a tremendous hurry. He tried to share something he thought was good! And so you should perhaps be less quick to judge us on our play-style choices. That build is a lovely one, and very fun to play, granting you a wide range of options and interesting goodies and greatly expanding your role in the party... though it is in some respects late blooming.

A really over-powered build might look something like this:

Beguiler 5/ Shadow Adept 3/ Shadowcraft mage 5/ Whatever.

[Eldariel]

Which race are you? Because if you happen to be a Gnome, Shadowcraft Mage [Races of Stone] could enable you to do very much Boom Boom as a Beguiler. If not, life gets a bit harder, but the mentioned Sandshaper [Sandstorm] - it adds a lot of spells to your list, although most of them are Dryness/Sand-themed, but there's some heat-related stuff there too, including a few solid summons. Sandshaper loses 1 level of spellcasting if you take it for the spells, but then you can get back to Beguiler with your new spell list.

If you happen to be a Changeling, Recaster [Races of Eberron] could also serve to teach you a fire-spell or two. And there's always the "Extra Spell"-feat [Complete Arcane], which could (sorta arguably) expand your spell list by a bit. But no, Dragon Disciple isn't really a good way as it gives up your spellcasting.

[Dagren]

Mindbender is good because it lets you get Mindsight, which is the ultimate "I SEE YOU" ability. As previously mentioned, it also delays your Advanced Learning so you can pick up a higher level spell with it.

Off topic, what exactly is that? I don't see anything like that in the book, just some rather sub-par abilities. (I mean, really? A CL 1 dominate person?)

[Aneantir]

Off topic, what exactly is that? I don't see anything like that in the book, just some rather sub-par abilities. (I mean, really? A CL 1 dominate person?)

Well, Mindsight is a feat originally found in Lords of Madness. It's a sneaky little bugger, tucked away from the rest of the feats in the book because people didn;'t want players to find it.

What it does is it gives you the ability to detect anything with an intelligence score within the radius of your telepathy ability. In addition, you get to know the level of intelligence the detected being is at.

It's rediculously good.