Full BAB Monk?

[raptor1056]

So, I, like nearly every other player within the realms of my knowledge, have dreamed of playing a monk. It would be undeniably quite awesome to be able to fly into action, Jet-Li style, and disarm the enemy swordsman, trip the wizard, Stunning Fist the Rogue, and grapple the cleric. However, as is generally the consensus on these forums, monks are pretty damn bad. (Note-- no flaming! if you disagree, I am not interested in your opinion on this specific subject. No offense to any who disagree with me, this post is just based on the assumption that monks are underpowered.) Would the simple addition of a full (+1/ level) BAB:
A. Make the monk sufficiently powerful?
B. Make the monk overly powerful?
--i. If so, how can this be remedied?
C. Cause the monk to remain underpowered?
--i. If so, could this be corrected by:
----a. A d10 HD?
----b. The ability to move and full attack?
----c. Free multiclassing?

Again, there is to be no flaming here. If things get out of hand, I will request the closure of this thread.


Monk
Alignment
Any
Hit Die
d12.
Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

BAB: Full

Saves: All full.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the monk.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Meditative Fighting (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, a monk may substitute her Wisdom bonus for her strength on attack rolls, damage rolls, and special attacks.
AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. At 6th level, a monk may make a flurry of blows as a standard action, and at 12th level, a monk may make a flurry of blows as a move action.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.
Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
Still Mind (Ex)
A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.
Ki Strike (Su)
At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Slow Fall (Ex)
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.
Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.

Large Grapple (Ex)
At 6th level, if a monk has the feat Improved Grapple, she makes grapple attempts as if she were one size category larger. At level 12, this bonus improves to 2 size categories, and at level 18, it improves to 3. If a monk does not possess the feat Improved Grapple, any time she takes the feat, she gains this ability.
Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.
Improved Evasion (Ex)
At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per p[oint of wisdom bonus, as a move action. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).
Diamond Soul (Ex)
At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.
Quivering Palm (Su)
Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a day per point of wisdom modifier, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.
Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.
Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.
Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

[Riffington]

It makes them stronger than the other melee classes (although slightly less so if most other melee builds take one level of monk prior to choosing their eventual alignment). It helps close the gap between casters and melee because of the boost in saves and the improved access to improved grapple.

However, it does not and will not eliminate the gap between casters and melee in a game where casters are played in the overpowered fashion standard on this and other boards.

[Dogmantra]

I think that full BAB, d10 HP and the ability to flurry (i.e. extra attack) as a standard action bring the monk up a little. Perhaps when he/she gains a third/fourth non-flurry attack, let them make 3 attacks as a standard action (as opposed to 4 as a full)

But as Riffington said: melee will never be as good as magic.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It makes them stronger than the other melee classes (although slightly less so if most other melee builds take one level of monk prior to choosing their eventual alignment). It helps close the gap between casters and melee because of the boost in saves and the improved access to improved grapple.

What? Sorry, but a "Full BaB Monk" will still fall to most classes out there, melee or no. Also, what good would 1 level of Monk do for most other classes? Unarmed Strike? That's a feat...two if you want a better strike. Wisdom to AC? That's what Armor is for...and the Swordsage does it better. Improved Grapple? That's another feat...and not mandatory.

What it does is take the monk out of the "practically inept at martial combat" category and place it in the "this class now can function well in a party of equally optimized characters" category.

I will give you the grapples though. But other classes can still do that, sometimes better. The "Full BaB Monk" still doesn't really compete with the Tome of Battle classes, and a decently build Fighter (if the player knows the tricks) or Barbarian can still take it out without to much effort.

However, it does not and will not eliminate the gap between casters and melee in a game where casters are played in the overpowered fashion standard on this and other boards.

True.

[J.Gellert]

It will make monks better as entry for Gishes...

[Riffington]

Improved Grapple?

Improved grapple and +2 to all saves. This is quite strong in any game involving primarily humanoids (the games I tend to play. Grappling may be weaker in certain campaigns, of course)

The reason a monk is no good in a grapple is because of BAB. But if you give him the BAB, he can rule grappling because of his flurry of blows (extra grapples) and high monk unarmed damage.

[raptor1056]

The intention is not to close the gap between melee and magic characters. The intention is to close the gap between monks and other meleers. I think this idea merits some playtesting. Also, Djinn, why do you think a full BaB monk would die to most other classes? I'm not countering your statement, I'm just wondering what your specific reasons for thinking that are.

[mostlyharmful]

Crappy BAB is only one part of the problems of Monks, you've still got cronic MAD, abilities that are underpowered and don't synergize and no clearly defined role in a party.

My usual working model of Monks gives them, full BAB, d12 HD, a choice of Wis or Str to attack, damage, special attacks rolls, reduce the action of flurry to a standerd at sixth, and then a move at 12 and increase the rate they get +s to AC from basic monkishness from every 5 levels to every 4. That'll make them competative with other meleers in my experiance as well as making them able to act as the mobile/special attacks meleer.

You can also reduce the DimDoor from a full round action to a standerd or move, give them Wis mod a day rather than one, make quivering palm once a day AND give them a whole slew more stuff at high level but since most groups don't get that high I rarely have to think about that. And no, if you do all this it still isn't overpowered, just competitive with a Barb.

[raptor1056]

Crappy BAB is only one part of the problems of Monks, you've still got cronic MAD, abilities that are underpowered and don't synergize and no clearly defined role in a party.

My usual working model of Monks gives them, full BAB, d12 HD, a choice of Wis or Str to attack, damage, special attacks rolls, reduce the action of flurry to a standerd at sixth, and then a move at 12 and increase the rate they get +s to AC from basic monkishness from every 5 levels to every 4. That'll make them competative with other meleers in my experiance as well as making them able to act as the mobile/special attacks meleer.

You can also reduce the DimDoor from a full round action to a standerd or move, give them Wis mod a day rather than one, make quivering palm once a day AND give them a whole slew more stuff at high level but since most groups don't get that high I rarely have to think about that. And no, if you do all this it still isn't overpowered, just competitive with a Barb.

You, sir, are a nice man. This thread was making me neurotic and uncomfortable, but you have answered calmly and friendlyly. For this, I thank you. I will be saving this build and testing it. Do you think that allowing monks to use Wisdom instead of Strength whenever it would apply would be reasonable? I feel like that would make monks generally more utilitarian.
As for flurry as a move action, Would that not allow two flurries in a turn? That would, in fact, be cool.

[HailDiscordia]

I just started up a new campaign and since I rolled up some pretty awesome scores I decided to be a monk. Like the OP I think that monks are one of the coolest classes around. The DM gave me the option of a full BAB, at the expense of one my good saves instead having the bad progression. I jumped all over it and took a bad reflex save.

So far he seems pretty competent in melee, though I do have the benefit of a high STR. I suspect he won't fight quite as well as some other melee classes, but I do have a bunch of neat skills and abilities that give him an edge in other realms.

I certainly don't think that a full BAB makes the monk too strong.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The intention is not to close the gap between melee and magic characters. The intention is to close the gap between monks and other meleers. I think this idea merits some playtesting. Also, Djinn, why do you think a full BaB monk would die to most other classes? I'm not countering your statement, I'm just wondering what your specific reasons for thinking that are.

Because the Monk now has a higher Base Attack Bonus, but his other class abilities are still not up to par. He's got a heavy Multiple Ability Dependency, meaning that those "Strong Saves" really aren't as strong as they appear (although still pretty good). His damage and attack still aren't as high as a standard melee character, his Armor Class and Hit Points still aren't as high, and his class abilities really help little in combat.

...hmmm...upon further reflection, that may not be entirety accurate. A +20/+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2 attack routine is nothing to laugh at. But that's really the only thing going for him, and I'm not sure it's enough to compete against, say, 9th level maneuvers, or the ability to channel 6th level spells through a full attack routine (Duskblade).

[valadil]

I've seen a full BAB monk played in a fairly lengthy campaign. He was comparable with the other fighters. I think this is a good fix for monks.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Because the Monk now has a higher Base Attack Bonus, but his other class abilities are still not up to par. He's got a heavy Multiple Ability Dependency, meaning that those "Strong Saves" really aren't as strong as they appear (although still pretty good). His damage and attack still aren't as high as a standard melee character, his Armor Class and Hit Points still aren't as high, and his class abilities really help little in combat.

...hmmm...upon further reflection, that may not be entirety accurate. A +20/+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2 attack routine is nothing to laugh at. But that's really the only thing going for him, and I'm not sure it's enough to compete against, say, 9th level maneuvers, or the ability to channel 6th level spells through a full attack routine (Duskblade).

Or a raging battle charge.

[raptor1056]

Because the Monk now has a higher Base Attack Bonus, but his other class abilities are still not up to par. He's got a heavy Multiple Ability Dependency, meaning that those "Strong Saves" really aren't as strong as they appear (although still pretty good). His damage and attack still aren't as high as a standard melee character, his Armor Class and Hit Points still aren't as high, and his class abilities really help little in combat.

...hmmm...upon further reflection, that may not be entirety accurate. A +20/+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2 attack routine is nothing to laugh at. But that's really the only thing going for him, and I'm not sure it's enough to compete against, say, 9th level maneuvers, or the ability to channel 6th level spells through a full attack routine (Duskblade).

Are you sure that it would not be 20/20/20/15/10/5? If we are using the 20/15/10/5 attack progression, unless there is something I don't understand about flurry of blows, this seems more accurate. Or course, there very well may be something I fail to understand about flurry, so I could be wrong.

[Riffington]

Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but show me where I'm wrong.

Comparing a full-BAB monk to a Barbarian, and for the sake of simplicity, giving them both the same stats (STR 18, Con 14, Dex 12, Wis 12, Int 8, Cha 8)

The full-BAB monk has:
*the ability to win grapples (because of flurry, high unarmed damage, and improved grapple), and thus can win a one-on-one fight with another melee character.
*great saves and eventually SR (the Barbarian just gets Dominated or goes to sleep or whatever) and thus can contribute more to a fight against casters.
*benefits more from each buff (especially size) because of greater number of attacks.


The Barbarian has:
*rage.
*a few points better AC (+3 at first level, decreasing to negative as the monk gains levels, gains a wis bonus item, and perhaps even a monk's belt)
*more HP.

I don't buy the MAD stuff, because the barbarian can't crap Wis any more than a monk can or he'd be useless against will saves.

If the Barbarian can afford a couple feats for improved grapple, the monk can more easily afford a single feat for a decent weapon (including an exotic like spiked chain or the like). What am I missing?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but show me where I'm wrong.

Comparing a full-BAB monk to a Barbarian, and for the sake of simplicity, giving them both the same stats (STR 18, Con 14, Dex 12, Wis 12, Int 8, Cha 8)

The full-BAB monk has:
*the ability to win grapples (because of flurry, high unarmed damage, and improved grapple), and thus can win a one-on-one fight with another melee character.
*great saves and eventually SR (the Barbarian just gets Dominated or goes to sleep or whatever) and thus can contribute more to a fight against casters.
*benefits more from each buff (especially size) because of greater number of attacks.


The Barbarian has:
*rage.
*a few points better AC (+3 at first level, decreasing to negative as the monk gains levels, gains a wis bonus item, and perhaps even a monk's belt)
*more HP.

I don't buy the MAD stuff, because the barbarian can't crap Wis any more than a monk can or he'd be useless against will saves.

If the Barbarian can afford a couple feats for improved grapple, the monk can more easily afford a single feat for a decent weapon (including an exotic like spiked chain or the like). What am I missing?

A generally higher Strength and Constitution, with an emphasis on Class Abilities using those. By 20th level, he can be expected to have at least a +3 advantage over your standard monk in both those stats. Also, most strong barbarian builds use Power Attack on a Two-handed weapon, often with Leap Attack to get huge damage multipliers that the monk, quite frankly, can't match. You'll see Barbarians dealing 200+ damage with a single attack quite handily...some go much higher. Then add in the Pounce variant Barbarian from the Complete Champion (I believe) and the madness escalates from there.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Steadfast Determination: Use Con Mod for will saves instead of Wis.

"Bad news. His weakest point just became his strongest point."

[Gorbash]

eventually SR

His SR is neglible. If he's against a caster of his level, caster beats it on a roll of 10, meaning more than 50% of the time. Assuming that caster doesn't boost his CL, which they usually do, in a number of ways, especially at levels 13+:

- Ring of Arcane Might
- Robe of Arcane Might
- Ioun Stone
- Create Magic Tattoo
- Spell Power from Archmage
- Bead of Karma (with UMD)

Assuming a combination of above, the caster has CL increased by 9, meaning he doesn't even have to roll to pass the SR.

Or:

Caster has Arcane Mastery (feat that lets him take 10 on Caster Level checks), meaning once again, he doesn't have to roll to pass SR.

Or:

Caster uses Assay Spell Resistance, giving him +10 on Caster Level checks, and for the third time, he doesn't even have to roll.

So, as you can see, SR that equals lvl + 10 isn't worth paper it was written on.

[Riffington]

A generally higher Strength and Constitution, with an emphasis on Class Abilities using those. By 20th level, he can be expected to have at least a +3 advantage over your standard monk in both those stats. Also, most strong barbarian builds use Power Attack on a Two-handed weapon, often with Leap Attack to get huge damage multipliers that the monk, quite frankly, can't match. You'll see Barbarians dealing 200+ damage with a single attack quite handily...some go much higher. Then add in the Pounce variant Barbarian from the Complete Champion (I believe) and the madness escalates from there.

But wait:
1. I already specified that the monk takes the barbarian stats. The barbarian does get rage, admittedly.
2. The monk can have leap attack and a 2-handed weapon (may as well be an exotic like spiked chain) more easily than the Barbarian because he has more feats to spare. His leap attack also has better range.
3. The monk can take Lion Totem Barbarian as his first level (that'd free up a weapon proficiency feat if he really wants to go with greatsword); the Barbarian has to take it instead of standard barbarian and thus would lose out on fast movement. So the monk's pouncing leap attack would have much greater range than the barbarian's; he just couldn't rage (unless he becomes nonlawful and thus gives up his ability to progress farther as a monk.)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

3. The monk can take Lion Totem Barbarian as his first level (that'd free up a weapon proficiency feat if he really wants to go with greatsword); the Barbarian has to take it instead of standard barbarian and thus would lose out on fast movement. So the monk's pouncing leap attack would have much greater range than the barbarian's; he just couldn't rage (unless he becomes nonlawful and thus gives up his ability to progress farther as a monk.)

Monks have to be Lawful, Barbarians have to be Chaotic to rage. Barbarian-Monks are a no-go.

[raptor1056]

Monks have to be Lawful, Barbarians have to be Chaotic to rage. Barbarian-Monks are a no-go.

I think I remember reading some trick that involved a Monk Bear-Warrior. I forget how it got the rage to qualify for the Grizzly in the first place, though. It might have been racial cheese.

[Hat-Trick]

Monks have to be Lawful, Barbarians have to be Chaotic to rage. Barbarian-Monks are a no-go.

He took that into consideration and said he couldn't rage unless he was chaotic, but a lawful barbarian1/monkx works exactly as he says.

[Riffington]

Monks have to be Lawful, Barbarians have to be Chaotic to rage. Barbarian-Monks are a no-go.

Monks have to be lawful to progress farther. Barbarians have to be nonlawful to rage. A monk with a one-level dip for pounce (no rage unless he stops being interested in monkness) is a go.

Actually, on farther calculation, if you allow leap attack + pounce, monk does even better. He lacks the rage (+3 hit/+4.5damage at high levels) so he invests 3 fewer points into his power attack. If he uses a quarterstaff vs a barbarian's greatsword, that means the Barbarian gets +17 extra damage on every hit at the end. But the monk gets +2 attacks, more than making up for this damage.

Gorbash: SR is not worthless. There are plenty of spells/magical abilities that one faces that are not cast by full-casters of your level with cheesed-up caster level. And if that's what you are facing, then a monk's saves (or his runaway speed) will certainly come in handy.

Pharaoh's Fist: if a barbarian spends 2 feats to have a meh will save, that puts him even farther behind the monk on feats. Not saying he shouldn't do it, but it's a sacrifice. The monk still has better saves, and now has even more combat options (leap attacking, tripping, grappling) vs the barbarian.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Actually, you can skip out on buying a two handed weapon entirely and just use the...Hammer Fist feat?

Hammer Fist
You are trained in an unarmed fighting style that emphasizes two-handed strike.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You may make a single unarmed attack with both hands to add 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the damage roll. This extra damage does not apply if you make a flurry of blows attack or you are holding anything in either hand.
Special: For the purposes of Power Attack an unarmed strike made in this matter counts as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of calculating the extra damage from Power Attack. (This feat is seen in Races of Faerun and in Dragon Compenium pg. 100)

With that, the monk will actually have a higher base damage then a barbarian with each unarmed strike doing 2d10 instead of the standard barbarian greatsword's 2d6. Follow the same feat progression for Leap Attack+etc and the damage will scale roughly the same (assuming Full BAB bonus monk and same stats) once the monk hits the equivilent of 12th level until the barbarian's rage boosts his strength higher but comes out about even to the monk's higher unarmed strike damage. Now, once Pounce comes into the mix and Frenzied Berserker, the difference greatly increases again, but I was leaving those out.

[raptor1056]

For the sake of coolness, my next campaign will disregard the no chaotic rule, and I will demand that one of my players build a barbarian/monk. And it will be awesome.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Gorbash: SR is not worthless. There are plenty of spells/magical abilities that one faces that are not cast by full-casters of your level with cheesed-up caster level. And if that's what you are facing, then a monk's saves (or his runaway speed) will certainly come in handy.

Counterpoint: SR is worthless because even if you have SR of Infinity, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and the Orbs will still make you rue the day you met them, and rue it hard.

Re: Steadfast Determination

A level 3 Barbarian with a 16 in CON will have a will save of +8 when raging.

A monk will have a will save of what, 3+ Wis mod, so +7 assuming 18 in Wis.

If +8 is a "meh" will save, what is a +7?

[ashmanonar]

Actually, you can skip out on buying a two handed weapon entirely and just use the...Hammer Fist feat?


With that, the monk will actually have a higher base damage then a barbarian with each unarmed strike doing 2d10 instead of the standard barbarian greatsword's 2d6. Follow the same feat progression for Leap Attack+etc and the damage will scale roughly the same (assuming Full BAB bonus monk and same stats) once the monk hits the equivilent of 12th level until the barbarian's rage boosts his strength higher but comes out about even to the monk's higher unarmed strike damage. Now, once Pounce comes into the mix and Frenzied Berserker, the difference greatly increases again, but I was leaving those out.

Ahh, the James T. Kirk School of Fighting has another graduate.

[raptor1056]

Counterpoint: SR is worthless because even if you have SR of Infinity, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and the Orbs will still make you rue the day you met them, and rue it hard.

Re: Steadfast Determination

A level 3 Barbarian with a 16 in CON will have a will save of +8 when raging.

A monk will have a will save of what, 3+ Wis mod, so +7 assuming 18 in Wis.

If +8 is a "meh" will save, what is a +7?

Please, a little less condescension. This is just a discussion, and there is no need to be so abrasive.
Anyways, would it be reasonable to give the monk smaller DR at level 10, or would that be too powerful?

[RS14]

For the record, everyone I know grants the monk Full BAB. It is still generally considered weak.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

With that, the monk will actually have a higher base damage then a barbarian with each unarmed strike doing 2d10 instead of the standard barbarian greatsword's 2d6.

Now, once Pounce comes into the mix and Frenzied Berserker, the difference greatly increases again, but I was leaving those out.

But you only get one attack.

Hammer Fist
You are trained in an unarmed fighting style that emphasizes two-handed strike.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You may make a single unarmed attack with both hands to add 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the damage roll. This extra damage does not apply if you make a flurry of blows attack or you are holding anything in either hand.
Special: For the purposes of Power Attack an unarmed strike made in this matter counts as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of calculating the extra damage from Power Attack. (This feat is seen in Races of Faerun and in Dragon Compenium pg. 100)

Gets better if you combine it with Decisive Blow though.