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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    ilovefire's Avatar

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    Default Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's broken.

    yeah... i'm not sure if this is entirely balanced. It most likely is not, but eh, that's what you guys are for, spotting errors I missed. it's in the vein of the Dragon Disciple. only... succubus.

    Succubus-Shaped, Version One

    Requirements
    Alignment: Any Chaotic
    Skills: Diplomacy 8 ranks, Use Rope 8 ranks, Bluff 8 ranks, Disguise 8 ranks
    Feats: Persuasive, Negotiator, Deceitful
    Special: Must have had at least one level drained by a succubus
    Special: Must be able to speak Abyssal

    Hit Die: d4
    Weapon/armor profiencies: A Succubus-Shaped gains no weapon or armor profiencies.
    BAB progression: 3/4ths
    Saves: Will, Reflex: high, Fortitude: low

    Skill Points Per Level: 6+ INT modifer
    Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival, Use Rope


    Special Abilities Per Level
    Lvl 1: Natural Armor Increase +1
    Lvl 2: Ability Boost: CHA +2, Claws
    Lvl 3: Energy Drain 1
    Lvl 4: Ability Boost: CHA +2, Natural Armor Increase +2
    Lvl 5: Polymorph (humanoid only, no limit on duration) 3/day
    Lvl 6: Ability Boost: INT +2
    Lvl 7: Energy Drain 2, Natural Armor Increase +3
    Lvl 8: Ability Boost: CHA +2
    Lvl 9: Wings
    Lvl 10: Shaped, Seduction

    Natural Armor Increase: At level one, four, and seven, the natural armor of the Succubus-Shaped increases by one.
    Ability Boost: At levels two, four, and eight, the Succubus-shaped’s charisma score increases by two. At level six, her intelligence increases by two.
    Claws: At level two, the Succubus-shaped gains two claw attacks as natural weapons. They deal damage according to this chart.
    Size Claw Damage
    Small 1d3
    Medium 1d4
    Large 1d6
    Energy Drain: At level three, a succubus-shaped may deal one charisma damage by hugging, kissing, or otherwise embraceing a creature with a charisma score. They may do so only once a day. The save to resist the charisma damage is will DC 14+class level of the Succubus-Shaped+the succubus-Shaped’s charisma bonus. The charisma damage increases to two at level seven. The succubus-Shaped decides to activate this ability.
    Polymorph: As the spell.
    Wings: The succubus-shaped gains flight speed equal to her normal ground speed, with average maneuverability.
    Shaped: The Succubus-Shaped’s type changes to Native Outsider. Demons will recognize her as a succubus, she always registers as chaotic evil to chaotic evil outsiders, even if she is not, and she adopts the follows spell like abilities of the succubus: Detect Thoughts, Charm Monster, Suggestion 3/day, save DC 14+ charisma modifier. They also gain the spell like ability Tongues, at will.
    Seduction: Anyone who is effected by the Succubus-shaped’s Energy Drain ability must make a DC 20+ the succubus-shaped’s charisma modifier will save, or be under a suggest effect to hugged, kissed, or otherwise embraced again.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Brickwall's Avatar

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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    On the seduction ability: don't you mean, "or they are under a suggestion effect"? Which would, of course, be that they wanted to kiss the SS again

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    spread out those spell-like abilities aswell.

    Getting Tongues, Detects Thoughts, Suggestion AND Charm MOnster as spell-like abilities all at once is a bit much. Nicer to build that up slowly.

    Otherwise I think that the prestige class is strong, but balanced when looking at the requirements.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    Brickwall: yeah, i did. Whoops. Fixed that.

    Math_Ending: allright, i'll take that into consideration.
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    Wait a second. Does this have spell progression? Without it, it's very weak for most classes (d4 hit dice? Ow), while with full spell progression, it's disturbingly awesome for Sorcerers. Besides being laid out a bit strangely, I think working out that is the first thing you need to do.

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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    Hmm, I guess you changed the Energy Drain ability to affect charisma rather than level since a level-drain is a bit too strong? I would rather see the ability added in at the very end, with the other abilities possibly reduced in compensation. The OTHER spell-like abilities should ramp up in power over the progression, IMO.

    Flavorwise you might call it "Succubus-Touched" and reduce the extent to which you truely turn into a succubus. If it's all right with you I may work up an alternate version for comparison, and see if you like it. The idea is a really fun one, I must say.

    Hmm, and I think it's almost a requirement that any succubus-based class does in fact get Tongues.
    "'To know, to do, and to keep silent.' Crowley had the first two down pat."

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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    why only chaotic? shouldn't it be chaotic evil?

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    Default Alternate Succubus PrC

    Succubus-Touched

    Occasionally, an adventurer who has tasted the life-stealing kiss of a succubus feels drawn to the seductive power these demons wield. For most, this temptation remains a secret, guitly longing, but for a few it blossoms into obsession. Through traffic with evil outsiders, such villains become more and more like succubi themselves, eventually gaining nearly all of the demon's powers.
    Adaptation: Male characters who pursue this prestige class are known as Incubus-Touched. Their abilities are otherwise identical.

    Hit Die: d6

    Requirements To become a succubus-touched, a character must fulfil the following criteria:

    Alignment: Any Evil
    Skills: Disguise 8 ranks, Diplomacy 8 ranks, Bluff 8 ranks.
    Feats: Persuasive, Deceitful
    Special: Must have had at least one level drained by a succubus.
    Special: The character must have made peaceful contact with a demon who was summoned by her or someone else.

    Class Skills: The succubus-touched's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Class Features: All of the Following are class features of the succubus-touched prestige class.

    Weapon and armor Proficiency: Succubus-touched gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Code:
    Table: The Succubus-Touched
    
    Level     BAB    Fort    Ref    Will     Special
    1.........+0.....+0......+2.....+2........Tongues, Darkvision
    2.........+1.....+0......+3.....+3........Ability Boost (Cha +2), Claws
    3.........+2.....+1......+3.....+3........Polymorph 1/day, Detect Thoughts
    4.........+3.....+1......+4.....+4........Ability Boost (Int +2), Suggestion 3/day
    5.........+3.....+1......+4.....+4........Charm Monster 1/day, Detect Good
    6.........+4.....+2......+5.....+5........Ability Boost (Wis +2), Suggestion at will
    7.........+5.....+2......+5.....+5........Polymorph 3/day, Charm Monster 3/day
    8.........+6.....+2......+6.....+6........Ability Boost (Cha +2), Damage Reduction 5/Cold Iron or Good
    9.........+6.....+3......+6.....+6........Demonic Flesh, Charm Monster at will
    10........+7.....+3......+7.....+7........Polymorph at will, Energy Drain
    Tongues (Su): The succubus-touched has a permanent Tongues ability (as the spell).

    Darkvision (Ex): The succubus-touched gains Darkvision out to 60 feet.

    Ability Boost (Ex): As a succubus-touched gains levels in this prestige class, her ability scores improve as noted on Table: The succubus-touched.
    These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancment.

    Claws (Ex): At 2nd level, a succubus-touched gains two claw attacks if she does not already have them. Use the values below or the succubus-touched's claw value, whichever is greater.
    A succubus-touched is considered proficient with these attacks.

    Size Claw Damage
    Small...........1d3
    Medium........1d4
    Large...........1d6

    Polymorph (Sp): Beginning at 3rd level, a succubus-touched gains the ability to alter her form. Once per day, she may assume the shape of any humanoid as though affected by a permanent Polymorph spell cast by a sorceror of her class level. At 7th level she may use this ability 3 times per day, and at 10th level she is able to use it at will. A polymorphed succubus-touched gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.

    Detect Thoughts (Sp): At will, a 3rd-level succubus-touched may cast Detect Thoughts, as the spell.

    Suggestion (Sp): At fourth level or higher, a succubus-touched may influence another's thoughts as though using the spell Suggestion, 3 times a day. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her class level. At 6th level, the succubus-touched may use this ability at will.

    Charm Monster (Sp): Once per day, a 5th-level succubus-touched may cast Charm Monster, as the spell. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her class level. At 9th level, she may use this ability 3 times per day.

    Detect Good (Sp): At will, a 5th-level succubus-touched may cast Detect Good, as the spell.

    Damage Reduction (Ex): An 8th-level succubus-touched gains Damage Reduction 5/Cold Iron or Good. Her natural weapons, as well as any weapons she wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

    Demonic Flesh (Ex): At 9th level, a succubus-touched has completed her physical transformation, and is nearly indistinguishiable from a true succubus. Her type changes to Native Outsider, and she always registers as chaotic evil to chaotic evil outsiders, even if she is not. In addition, the succubus-touched grows a set of bat-like demonic wings. She may now fly at a speed equal to her normal land speed, with average maneuverability.

    Energy Drain (Su): At 10th level, the succubus-touched gains access to the demon's signature attack. The succubus-touched's kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus-touched. The victim is entitled to a Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion (DC 13 + the succubus-touched's Cha modifier). The Fortitude save to remove the negative level is made versus DC 15 + the succubus-touched's Cha modifier. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus-touched must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity.



    My two cents. I was trying to spread the abilities out a bit more without front-loading the thing.
    I'm worried that the Energy Drain might be too strong for a PC...I'd nerf it by reducing the uses/day or possibly dropping the save DC.
    "'To know, to do, and to keep silent.' Crowley had the first two down pat."

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    A problem with the requirements is that no one in the world would really get into this class without meta-planning. Basically you'd have to be a Rogue or Bard geared towards a special skill set and in possession of three skill feats, which are usually considered NPC feats and shunned by players, and then getting drained (but not killed) by a succubus, which you'd ordinarily try to avoid the heck out of. Or you could try to gain the requirements after you get drained, but you'd be hard pressed to reach level 10 in this class before you hit the epic barrier and DIE. I'd consider relaxing the requirements, even if it means a corresponding drop in power.

    Also: shouldn't it be succubus-touched for men, incubus-touched for women? Most of the time, that is.

    Edit: this comment is aimed at the original post. The variant in the post above this addresses the problem to some extent. I think the demon contact thing might even fully replace getting drained; it's not entirely clear how getting shafted by a demon makes you want to actively become one yourself.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    Strikes me as more an option for a villain. Maybe it's just that I dislike evil PCs.

    That said, doesn't look too bad.

    Someone asked about spell progression; I'd say keep it out. The spell like abilities of the succubus handle it nicely..
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    Hmm, the spell progression issue. I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on that. On the one hand, with the exception of Energy Drain, the abilities aren't all that strong, plus they can be saved against. On the other hand, the class is getting some nice stat boosts, 2/3 BAB, and two good saves. Then there's the fact that, flavorwise, it's not strictly a "spellcasting PrC."

    Would adding some dice of Sneak Attack be overpowered? It seems like something a succubus might have. Actually, that makes me think of the World of Warcraft succubi. Maybe we should add proficiency with whips?
    "'To know, to do, and to keep silent.' Crowley had the first two down pat."

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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    Well, currently, I don't see it as a very good build for a PC. I suppose you could use it for an NPC, but why put a Succubus-touched character against players as opposed to a real one? The problem is that a Rogue doesn't really have that much use for the awe-inspiring CHA bonuses, which is by far the best part about the class. Frankly I see this more as a Bard class really, which would actually be really scary.

    Since getting this class depends on very arbitary things, realistically you'd need different builds for all character classes that might want it - but the Bard version would need, I think, 1/2 spell progression and the ability to count 1/2 of Succubus level to Bardic Music, or maybe some specialized Bard songs. It still wouldn't be really broken - it's very difficult for a Bard to be broken, really - but it would make for a very fun sort of siren-esque character, and would make the character more viable in a variety of situations. Also, evil (or at least "naughty") bards are just frightening. ;)

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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    Actually, I like it. SPider, I like how you spaced out access to Polymorph, I was going to suggest that myself. I also think that the Suggestion ability should be more progressive. Instead of full acess at six, maybe 6 times/day, and then full access at 9th.
    I might also swithc Detect Thoughts and Detect Good. Logically, I think it makes sense as-is, but for balance I would prefer that they were gained in the opposite order.

    Ah, and I agree with Coffee_Dragon about the name. Somehting else I was going to suggest.
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    Those are some good points, Karellen. Do you have any ideas for making the class more generally viable? As it presently stands (both versions) I agree that it's a very flavor-oriented class for people who want to play a succubus-like thing without the sick ECL adjustments. Not really that strong from a mechanical standpoint.
    I'm not sure that one would need different versions of this for different classes; it just needs tweaking so that it will actually be a smart choice for at least one (preferably more) class, since at present it doesn't fill any of the classic party roles. I'd say a fighter wouldn't be interested. Rogue, Bard, and maybe Sorceror or Cleric (if we added spellcasting progression) already have some kind of synergy that we could boost. Ranger or monk wouldn't really lose anything but the choice isn't at all optimal.

    Right now I'm leaning away from spell progression as a way to power up the class. A sorceror would love the ability boost, but probably wouldn't want to give up his caster level for it. I don't think there's enough synergy to make that a strong choice.

    A bard, as a secondary caster in the first place, might make that tradeoff, especially as tha CHA boost helps his perform. However: even without caster advancement, the most "succubus-like" abilitity of the bard (fascinate) is still greatly improved since the DC is based on a perform check. I'd argue that Peform should be a succubus-touched class skill.

    A rogue probably wouldn't take this class if it was powered up with a spellcaster progression.

    Let's consider adding sneak attack progression (probably 1/3 or maybe less) as an alternative way to boost the PrC. A sorceror probably wouldn't take the class, but that's okay. It's not very sorcerous, flavorwise.

    A rogue would obviously like the continued sneak-attack dice, but I think the charisma boosts and other abilities could work very well, too. Remember that almost all of the social-interaction skills are class skills for the rogue as well.

    Bards can benefit from sneak attacks as well, since they're usually dex-based rather than heavy weapon-damage types. However, it's true that not granting bardic music or spellcaster progression makes the choice not 100% optimal for a bard.

    What it comes down to in the end is flavor. A lot of PrCs have organizations attached to them, and this one might as well. As I see it, what's happening as you progress is that your evil character is tutored by succubi and slowly corrupted into a demon. Obviously this is all part of some insidious plot on the part of the demons. The nature of their scheme would determine what kind of class synergy the PrC gets. Do they want sexy spy-assassins? Sneak attack. Charismatic subverters? Bardic progression.

    I guess if one really wanted to one could handle this like the DaggerSpells, with one or two classes from the same organization. That's a lot more balance than I'd really like to get into, though.

    Edit: HempRope, that's not a bad idea about adding another step for Suggestion; I definitely am still not sure that the power progression works. Balancing at-will abilities is iffy. I did the way I did because I wanted to avoid too many of the powers going over to "at will" in the same level. Definitely agree on switching the Detects around, though.
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    I agree with the idea of having different 'versions'. Though that can be done in a single class. Simply add a list of features they can choose off of (look at Geomancer (I think!) to see what I mean, or whatever PrC is the one that has Drift). Could even make them have prerequisites (like the d20 Modern base class Trait trees).

    Some stuff to pick from (besides the obvious) that could make this appealing to various classes:

    - +Natural AC
    - Claws and Fangs
    - Add spells from the Sp abilities list to Known spells (even above limit)
    - +1 spell level
    - wings
    - cha / dex / str gains
    - skill bonuses
    - etc

    You can group them so you have to choose between say +1 spell level or the +cha at those levels and can't take both.


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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    I don't see any solution to the problems, or perhaps difficulties, that you pointed out, Spider. But I'll be thinking. In the meantime...

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderBrigade
    Bards can benefit from sneak attacks as well, since they're usually dex-based rather than heavy weapon-damage types. However, it's true that not granting bardic music or spellcaster progression makes the choice not 100% optimal for a bard.
    I had always seen this PrC as something I would only take as a Bard. The typical rogue loses too much skill selection, and even the more socially oriented suffers a serious drop, or at least turnaround, in their special abilities. Though the occasional rogue might want to take the class, I still see it as primarily beneficial for Bards. So I think something that builds off of spellcasting would be nice.

    First, I think you should add Use Magic Device as a class skill, and consider Spellcraft, too.
    In addition, I would suggest giving individual bonus spells, as the DD PrC grants. I have found that measly pittance of a spellcasting bonus utterly useless for Sorcerers (the only class, flavor-wise, likely to pick it up!), and not a lot better for Wizards. But I think it would be excellent for bards, who have limited spellcasting anyway. I think it would make the SS far more appealing to Bards.

    I feel that while Sneak Attack, while a good idea for the class, either needs to be a main feature or shouldn't be incorporated at all. That adds a whole 'nother element to the class, that of taking advantage of the victim's lowered defenses to attack. And, honestly, I don't think it's an avenue we should explore with the design.
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    allright. all of thsi taken into account... I lessened the requirements, spread out the abilities, and generally, I think, made it slightly more attractive to pick. Or, i could be lieing to myself. Either way, this is version two, of mine. and i'm keeping the name, just because... well, i like the acronym SS. :D


    Succubus-Shaped, Version Two

    Requirements
    Alignment: Any Chaotic
    Skills: Diplomacy 8 ranks, Bluff 8 ranks
    Feats: Persuasive, Deceitful
    Special: Must have had at least one level drained by a succubus
    Special: Must be able to speak Abyssal

    Hit Die: d6
    Weapon/armor profiencies: A Succubus-Shaped gains no weapon or armor profiencies.
    BAB progression: 3/4ths
    Saves: Will, Reflex: high, Fortitude: low

    Skill Points Per Level: 6+ INT modifer
    Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival, Use Rope, Perform


    Special Abilities Per Level
    Lvl 1: Natural Armor Increase +1, Polymorph (humanoid only, no limit on duration) 1/day
    Lvl 2: Ability Boost: CHA +2, Claws, +1 level of existing casting class.
    Lvl 3: Energy Drain 1
    Lvl 4: Ability Boost: CHA +2, Natural Armor Increase +2, +1 level of existing casting class.
    Lvl 5: Polymorph (humanoid only, no limit on duration) 2/day
    Lvl 6: Ability Boost: INT +2, Shaped 1, +1 level of existing casting class.
    Lvl 7: Energy Drain 2, Natural Armor Increase +3
    Lvl 8: Ability Boost: WIS +2, Shaped 2, +1 level of existing casting class.
    Lvl 9: Wings
    Lvl 10: Shaped 3, Seduction, Polymorph (humanoid only, no limit on duration) 3/day, +1 level of existing casting class.

    Natural Armor Increase: At level one, four, and seven, the natural armor of the Succubus-Shaped increases by one.
    Spells per day/Spells Known: At every even numbered class level, the Succubus-shaped increases her spells per day and spells known, if applicable, as if she had gained a level in a current caster class.
    Ability Boost: At levels two and four, the Succubus-shaped’s charisma score increases by two. At level six, her intelligence increases by two. At level eight, her dexterity increases by two.
    Claws: At level two, the Succubus-shaped gains two claw attacks as natural weapons. They deal damage according to this chart.
    Size Claw Damage
    Small 1d3
    Medium 1d4
    Large 1d6
    Energy Drain: At level three, a succubus-shaped may deal one charisma damage by hugging, kissing, or otherwise embraceing a creature with a charisma score. They may do so only once a day. The save to resist the charisma damage is will DC 14+class level of the Succubus-Shaped+the succubus-Shaped’s charisma bonus. The charisma damage increases to two at level seven. The succubus-Shaped decides to activate this ability.
    Polymorph: As the spell.
    Wings: The succubus-shaped gains flight speed equal to her normal ground speed, with average maneuverability.
    Shaped: At level six, the Succubus-shaped gains the spell Detect Thoughts 3/day as a spell like ability, and always registers as chaotic evil to outsiders with a chaotic evil alignment, even if she isn’t. At level eight, she gains the spell Charm Monster 3/day as a spell like ability, and is recognized as a succubus by demons. At level ten, she gains the spell Suggestion 3/day as a spell like ability, and her type changes to native outsider. The save DC for all spell like abilities are 10 + CHA modifier + class level.
    Seduction: Anyone who is effected by the Succubus-shaped’s Energy Drain ability must make a DC 20+ the succubus-shaped’s charisma modifier will save, or be under a suggestion effect to hugged, kissed, or otherwise embraced again.
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    I'd suggest that you replace the drained level requirement with only having to have had a negative level bestowed by a succubus.
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    Default Re: Succubus-shaped. it's a PrC. I think it's brok

    In your lil diagram, its says at level 8 you gain wisdom, but in your wordy-thing, you say dex... which one is right?
    ???
    My druid thinks tree sap tastes like candy.

    Never, ever, EVER, make a magazine. Speaking from personal experience, it's awful.

    Would you like to read an allegory to the Arab Spring, told in the style of Indiana Jones meets Welcome to Sarajevo, through the medium of Ponies?

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Jun 2004
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    Default Re: Alternate Succubus PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderBrigade
    Adaptation: Male characters who pursue this prestige class are known as Incubus-Touched. Their abilities are otherwise identical.
    This just triggered a thought in my head. Surely it should be the other way around? A male character is more likely to 'taste the life-stealing kiss' of an succubus, and a female one that of an incubus?

    ...well anyway...

    I can't see any flaws with Version Two, Ilovefire.
    “I promise, we will find all your moms. And I'm gonna tell!.”- Wonder Woman

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