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    RedWizardGuy

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    biggrin 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    I am planning to make a campaign in which 3.5 characters and 4.0 characters exist. Ive done campaigns that use monsters from both editions, but I have never had both types of characters.

    Does anyone have a level equivilancy chart between 4.0 and 3.5? Like, Level 1 4.0 is equivilant to level 3 3.5 or something like that.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    It would be tricky- maybe use wizard powers as a very rough guideline. Remember 4th ed grants characters a massive HP boost at first level- they are probably closer to 3rd level 3.5 characters.

    At high levels, the characters are much weaker, proportionately, compared to casters.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-06-07 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    How are you going to handle the fact that 4th has no full-round actions?

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Faleldir View Post
    How are you going to handle the fact that 4th has no full-round actions?
    That's one of the easiest, actually. 4th edition characters have no full-round actions...but they also have no abilities that require full round actions. Ergo, it's not important.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Don't try it. it will drive you mad.. MMMAAAAD!

    The games aren't remotely the same system. You pretty much need to make a 4e character without regards for the abilities your 3e character had... simply because 1) the abilities from 3 aren't there in 4 and 2) Combinations that worked well together in 3e probably won't work together in 4e


    If you get it to work though, let us know, it sounds interesting.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic
    That's one of the easiest, actually. 4th edition characters have no full-round actions...but they also have no abilities that require full round actions. Ergo, it's not important.
    But what if a level 1 3.5 Druid casts Entangle at them? Can they use a full-round action to make a Strength check?

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    I'd say that the 3.5 characters will start out significantly weaker than the 4E ones. Casters will run out of spells, everyone will have lower hit points, etc.

    By the higher levels though, the 3.5 characters will have overshadowed their 4E counterparts. Even epic destinies can't wreak the sort of havoc that 9th level spells can. Heck, just look at all the ways polymorph alone can be abused, and wizards have that by level 7.

    This applies to martial characters as well, though not as severely. The 4E characters will pack some oomph, but most of their best stuff will be usable only once per encounter or once per day. Whereas the main advantage of non-casters in 3.5 is that they can usually use all their tricks all the time.

    And that's if you say a level 30 4E character is equivalent to a level 20 3.5 one. A level 30 3.5 character is pretty much a living god, and could probably take on 4Es Orcus single-handedly.
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    I think in some early 4th edition discussion, that someone related the tiers of 4th as being starting out heroic, which 3.5 you had to earn your hero title a bit, so they said a 1st level character in 4th was akin to a level 5 character in 3.5.

    This was just a basic discussion of power levels, and wasn't fully examined or developed to account for all levels of each system, but that is the best I can offer from the words of someone that played 3.5 a lot, and was running a 4th edition game.

    Doesn't really seem that far off, except for the odd ways that character do things.

    Maybe they just meant power-wise level 1 4th was level 5 for 3.5 and each level goes up with each edition?

    5/1
    6/2
    7/3

    Good luck on the rest, as I don't think the way the systems PCs work will mesh well, but would love to here how it turns out!

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    And don't forget the entirely different defense systems. How would you handle a 3e character being targetted by a vs. REF attack when 3e doesn't even have a Reflex defense? How would you handle a 4e Wizard trying to cast a spell on a 3e monster with SR when the Wizard doesn't even have a caster level? You'll wind up with a whole lot of this unless you put a ridiculous amount of work into trying to mesh every single difference.
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by derfenrirwolv View Post
    Don't try it. it will drive you mad.. MMMAAAAD!
    Dont worry, that happened a long time ago, when I tried to become a bard

    The games aren't remotely the same system. You pretty much need to make a 4e character without regards for the abilities your 3e character had... simply because 1) the abilities from 3 aren't there in 4 and 2) Combinations that worked well together in 3e probably won't work together in 4e
    That...wasnt exactly what I meant. What I was thinking was to have 3.5 characters and 4.0 characters adventure in the same party.

    If you get it to work though, let us know, it sounds interesting.
    I will, though I was also interested if someone had already done that so that I do not have to do excessive ammounts of playtesting


    Hamishspence: I am definitely not playing this 1st to 30th. The 4.0 characters would start at level 1 and advance twice as fast as a 3.5 character, who would start at level 3.

    It would start to break down at higher levels, but...anyone got a better idea?


    Faleldir and Djinn_in_Tonic: I would have the 4.0 characters have to use their move and standard actions in a turn, as opposed to a full round action.


    Starscream: You're entire post is correct. Like I said, I will have the 4.0 characters advance more quickly to represent their limited power. This campaign probably would not go above level 10 3.5/15 4.0.


    Anyone else have any advice?
    Last edited by Olo Demonsbane; 2009-06-07 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo Demonsbane View Post
    I am planning to make a campaign in which 3.5 characters and 4.0 characters exist. Ive done campaigns that use monsters from both editions, but I have never had both types of characters.

    Does anyone have a level equivilancy chart between 4.0 and 3.5? Like, Level 1 4.0 is equivilant to level 3 3.5 or something like that.

    Thanks in advance.
    My question is, quite simply, Why are you planning to make a campaign in which 3.5 characters and 4.0 characters exist? What's the aim, here?

    As someone said, they really are different systems. In order for the characters to interact in anything but the most basic way, you'd probably end up having to make some kind of weird hybrid of the two anyway. (To account for things like the defences vs defence rolls, etc).

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Yea...one is made for ages 5-10, the other one slightly older. long live AD&D

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Well, if you use TOB and Warlocks as opposed to Fighters and Wizards, then 3.5 becomes more like 4E. If that helps.
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixahinon View Post
    Yea...one is made for ages 5-10, the other one slightly older. long live AD&D
    What a constructive post! How nice of you to decide to share your vast knowledge with the unenlightened!

    Coincidentally, I think someone tried to make a cooperation between AD&D and 3e character too, some time ago. Didn't work either - the systems were too different.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    3.X Magic/Other Magic-Like Cheese Users>All 4e Classes>Everything Else in 3.X.
    It would still be really unbalanced.
    As for level equivalents:
    Levels 1 to 5, 4e>3.X
    Past that, generally 3.X is better per level because of teh whole L.V. 20=L.V. 30.
    Still, magic is way more broken in 3.X.
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    And don't forget the entirely different defense systems. How would you handle a 3e character being targetted by a vs. REF attack when 3e doesn't even have a Reflex defense? How would you handle a 4e Wizard trying to cast a spell on a 3e monster with SR when the Wizard doesn't even have a caster level? You'll wind up with a whole lot of this unless you put a ridiculous amount of work into trying to mesh every single difference.
    Reflex save is easy...subtract 10 from the defense, or add 10, depending on which you need. And simply use class level instead of caster level.

    The systems themselves mesh pretty well...I have had 3 campaigns that included stuff from other editions.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    My question is, quite simply, Why are you planning to make a campaign in which 3.5 characters and 4.0 characters exist? What's the aim, here?

    As someone said, they really are different systems. In order for the characters to interact in anything but the most basic way, you'd probably end up having to make some kind of weird hybrid of the two anyway. (To account for things like the defences vs defence rolls, etc).
    I have some friends that like 3.5 better (refuse to play 4.0 actually) and some who like 4.0 better. I was trying to get them to meet, seeing as I dont have that many friends that play DND anyway

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo Demonsbane View Post
    I have some friends that like 3.5 better (refuse to play 4.0 actually) and some who like 4.0 better. I was trying to get them to meet, seeing as I dont have that many friends that play DND anyway
    Not to Deviate the topic, but you'd probably be better off finding a game that they can all enjoy together, GURPS, RIFTS, CORPS, EABA, FUDGE, Anima, CoC, CthulhuTech, Shadowrun, Mutants and Masterminds, Traveller, Little Fears, Dark Heresy, Star Wars SAGA Edition.

    In fact if you are trying to mash 3.5 and 4.0 together, play Star Wars Saga Edition, its the perfect middle ground of 3.5 and 4.0

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    As prospective DM, my answer takes two letters. Although I can embellish it at need with an assortment of four-letter options.

    Just try making identical first-level fighters, for example, and see how well they match up. Answer: they don't. In the event of a critical hit, the 3.5 fighter MAY expect to do greater damage (depending on weapon choice) - but the 4E fighter is more likely to get a critical hit (or an ordinary hit) against most opponents, and can take more damage. Try to translate 4E skills to 3.5, and you'll find that most first-level human 4E fighters (those who, taking four skills out of five options, do NOT choose to skip Athletics) have at least 30 skill points in 3.5 skills - whereas the first-level human 3.5 fighter has 12.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo Demonsbane View Post
    I have some friends that like 3.5 better (refuse to play 4.0 actually) and some who like 4.0 better. I was trying to get them to meet, seeing as I dont have that many friends that play DND anyway
    Yeah. But I think that in trying to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing noone. A 3E/4E hybrid would literally be the worst of both worlds.
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Well, if you use TOB and Warlocks as opposed to Fighters and Wizards, then 3.5 becomes more like 4E. If that helps.
    I think that is a good idea.

    Warlocks relpace Wizards and Warblades replace Fighters.
    Start them with an extra HD and at level 3. I think that balances it out a bit more. Maybe even an extra feat?
    Then at higher levels give the 4.0 characters an extra ability slot or two.
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    I honestly don't think it will work well. you could try making a hybrid game and try and get what your friends like about the various systems in but a game with both 3.5 and 4.0? don't do it, ever, no not even then.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    You're doing it wrong. Obviously the right way to combine 3.5 and 4.0 is to make everyone gestalt 3.5/4.0. Then you don't have to worry about mismatched amounts of HP, full round actions, whether movement triggers an OA or an AoO, etc.
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo Demonsbane View Post
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo Demonsbane View Post
    I have some friends that like 3.5 better (refuse to play 4.0 actually) and some who like 4.0 better. I was trying to get them to meet, seeing as I don't have that many friends that play DND anyway
    Never the twain shall meet Olo. You're setting yourself up for a world of hurt by trying to straddle two widely-divergent wild horses of systems that don't really get on with one another.

    You might want to go for something simple and fun if you want to get your friends to move out of their comfort zones. Less system-juggling headaches; more gaming goodness.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by warrl View Post
    As prospective DM, my answer takes two letters. Although I can embellish it at need with an assortment of four-letter options.

    Just try making identical first-level fighters, for example, and see how well they match up. Answer: they don't. In the event of a critical hit, the 3.5 fighter MAY expect to do greater damage (depending on weapon choice) - but the 4E fighter is more likely to get a critical hit (or an ordinary hit) against most opponents, and can take more damage. Try to translate 4E skills to 3.5, and you'll find that most first-level human 4E fighters (those who, taking four skills out of five options, do NOT choose to skip Athletics) have at least 30 skill points in 3.5 skills - whereas the first-level human 3.5 fighter has 12.
    Ooh, I hadn't thought of skills

    Another problem with skills is the 1/2 level bonus that 4e characters get to them. Not only would it be a bitch and a half to translate the effect into 3e terms, but the way skills interact with their relevant DCs would be difficult to deal with as well. 4e skills rely on DCs that scale with level to keep everybody distinct, meaning that the +5 that skill training grants actually is relevant at all levels (despite many peoples' assertions to the contrary). In 3e, a +5 is nothing, especially when every single skill is treated as cross-class. Likewise, if you tried to put the effect of 3e's skill system (a +1 bonus per level to some skills, nada for the rest), 4e's DC system would break down almost instantly.
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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

    Quote Originally Posted by Olo Demonsbane View Post
    I have some friends that like 3.5 better (refuse to play 4.0 actually) and some who like 4.0 better. I was trying to get them to meet, seeing as I dont have that many friends that play DND anyway
    So, here's why I asked. It COULD be done, but as pointed out by the others, it probably wouldn't achieve the goal you are hoping for. It would, imo, actually be much more likely to go down well if you were running it for people who enjoy BOTH systems, and with lots of tongue-in-cheek fudging where things don't quiiite match.

    I second the 'find neutral ground' vote, a system that neither faction knows or dislikes. Failing that, you could always just see if either group is willing to 'slum it' in the name of having a laugh. Call me optimistic, but you may be surpised. :)

    (Case in point, choosing between 3rd and 4th is a no brainer for me. I'd pick the 4th ed every time. But if it's a choice between game or no game, it's ALSO a no brainer, and the system doesn't really matter in my choosing.)

    Admittedly, if the 3.5ers are being jerky about it and just flat out refusing to play ball, giving the 4th eds access to the whole TOB thing and Warlocks would probably be what i'd go for. (Being that you didn't mention the 4th eds as flat out refusing to play 3.5. I'm being the optimist again.)

    Whatever you go for, though, Good Luck.

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    Default Re: 4.0 and 3.5 characters, working in harmony

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