Swapping ToB Disciplines

[Hat-Trick]

I recently had an idea for a character who practices the sublime way, but noticed that the disciplines that work best thematically for the rest of the concept aren't all use by one class. Would it be fair to swap disciplines from one ToB class with another?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I recently had an idea for a character who practices the sublime way, but noticed that the disciplines that work best thematically for the rest of the concept aren't all use by one class. Would it be fair to swap disciplines from one ToB class with another?

Depends on which disciplines you're swapping, though most of them are so well-balanced it's not a huge issue. Everyone gets Stone Dragon and it's the weakest, so I'd say you can't give it up. White Raven and Devoted Spirit are some of the best, so I wouldn't make them easy to get. Which disciplines do you want, and what's the concept?

[Hat-Trick]

I wanted Iron Heart for a swordsage. The idea was a vampire spawn assassin with the HD and LA on the opposite side of gestalt. I know that isn't how it works, but it's more of a thought than for a game, so that isn't actually a problem here. But the discipline swap is something I might want to house rule in a game.

Edit: The other disciplines the character would specialize in would be shadow hand, stone dragon, and diamond mind.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I wanted Iron Heart for a swordsage. The idea was a vampire spawn assassin with the HD and LA on the opposite side of gestalt. I know that isn't how it works, but it's more of a thought than for a game, so that isn't actually a problem here.

There is no official way that LA and HD work in Gestalt, but that is IMHO the fairest, and a fairly common interpretation.

But the discipline swap is something I might want to house rule in a game.

Edit: The other disciplines the character would specialize in would be shadow hand, stone dragon, and diamond mind.

Just those 4(down from the SS normal 6) is probably a drop in power, which seems fair. If you want to give up only one, I'd say dropping Tiger Claw is fairest, due to the fact that Setting Sun is so...oddly balanced, while Tiger Claw is considered fairly useful and versatile.

[Hat-Trick]

Thanks. I can now make the character without confusing multiclassing between swordsage and warblade.

[togapika]

As Iron Heart is the discipline that the Warblade is granted sole access to I wouldn't do it. If you must, there should be some balancing factor for doing so.

[Hat-Trick]

I was planning on losing at least one of the other disciplines. Maybe more, since I'm not going to use them anyway. Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and maybe Tiger Claw, all gone, or at least not heavily used, if at all.

[The_Snark]

The thing is, if you weren't planning on using them, you're not really giving up very much by swapping them out—if anything.

My feeling is that swapping disciplines should be on a case-by-case basis; you should lose at least as much as you gain. As people have mentioned, Stone Dragon is universally accessible, and generally isn't as good as the others; it probably isn't an equal trade with any of them.

Of the others, Desert Wind isn't that great (though it has a few very useful maneuvers). Tiger Claw is good in a build that focuses on two-weapon fighting, but if you're not doing that it's easy to do without. Setting Sun is likewise fun, but if it's not part of your character concept you're not losing anything by missing it.

Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, White Raven, and Devoted Spirit are probably the most powerful disciplines (I've never really used Shadow Hand, but it sounds like it belongs between these four and the previous three), and shouldn't be granted without looking at the swap carefully. A crusader that wanted to trade Devoted Spirit for Iron Heart, for example, would be fair—crusaders have so few disciplines that most are going to end up with a few of the better Devoted Spirit maneuvers anyway. A swordsage that wanted to have one of those... well, ideally they'd be giving up either Diamond Mind or Shadow Hand, and maybe another discipline.

Unfortunately, that would sort of mess up your concept. If I were a DM okaying this, I'd suggest changing to a warblade and swapping White Raven for Shadow Hand—you can't take as much advantage of your maneuvers that way—but I suspect that's not really what you want either, since it would cut down on your stealth abilities... and because it's really hard to use four disciplines competently as a warblade.

Master of Nine could be worth looking at, though.

[Hat-Trick]

Is it really so good that losing three disciplines completely is still not enough?

[The_Snark]

It's not that the discipline is incredibly powerful, but as you've said, you have no actual interest in the three disciplines you'd be losing; if losing those doesn't affect the character, there isn't actually a trade-off. To use a somewhat extreme analogy, it's like a wizard giving up the ability to take feats that appear on the fighter bonus list, in exchange for access to a few spells from another spell list. On the surface, they give up a lot, but realistically there are only a couple fighter bonus feats they would ever bother taking (Improved Initiative, for example), and those won't be missed too much. In exchange, you're getting something useful, and potentially quite powerful.

That's only my gut feeling on it, of course; there's no hard-and-fast rule for this sort of thing. As a DM, I wouldn't feel too comfortable giving one of the more powerful disciplines without taking away a similarly useful one.

I guess my advice for this character in particular is to try building him, and see if he actually suffers from lacking Iron Heart; swordsages get a lot of maneuvers, but three disciplines you like will probably still be plenty, and the Iron Heart/Diamond Mind fluff is fairly similar. If he does, hey, it's a thought experiment (and even if you eventually want to use him, your DM may like the idea more than I do). My advice for discipline swapping in general is just to use your judgment, and don't give out access to the powerful ones too easily.

[Hat-Trick]

I'm losing three I have no interest in for the character, like a rogue or fighter swapping feats and sneak attack both are useful, but one may be better for a particular idea. If it weren't an assassin-esque build, I'd probably have gone with Desert Wind and be happy, but it's too flash. Setting Sun is all about turning strength back on the opponent, but I'm playing a Vampire Spawn. "I'm stronger than anything that'll get in my way. I'll just kill them." And Tiger Claw is too animalistic for a trained and disciplined assassin. Iron Heart gives the feel of training and discipline that matches the character.