Solid CR

[Tequila Sunrise]

We all know that CR is a vague guideline that varies from book to book, and from monster to monster. At best. Some of us don't mind, some do. Some of us would like CR to be a unified and consistent rule/guideline, and it is possible. In order to do that, stats must be based directly on CR. So once and for all, how exactly should stats be tied to CR?

How many hit points should an upfront battle monster have? How about a sneaky monster? A special attack user?

How many attack bonuses should they have? How many save bonuses? Etc...?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's too far into 3.X to come up with those rules. There's already dozens of monsters printed that break them, after all. A better bet, IMHO, would be a system to extrapolate CR from stats. Figure out how dangerous a monster is, rather than figuring out a danger level and then making a monster to fit that.

[AslanCross]

I know Vorpal Tribble once posted a set of guidelines for eyeballing CR for homebrewed monsters. I just can't find it for the life of me.

[Keld Denar]

It really depends on the creatures type. Outsides, regardless of combat role, tend to have a CR = HD, while undead tend to have rather inflated HD's, except for the ones that are primarily casters with class levels. There really isn't a constant variable that you can base those stats on.

[SadisticFishing]

Try 4e, or learn to eyeball it. I got good at both those :P

[Tequila Sunrise]

It's too far into 3.X to come up with those rules. There's already dozens of monsters printed that break them, after all. A better bet, IMHO, would be a system to extrapolate CR from stats. Figure out how dangerous a monster is, rather than figuring out a danger level and then making a monster to fit that.

The problem with re-CRing existing monsters is that there are no good CRs for many of them. They have insane AB and damage, but pathetic defense, or they have an awesome save-or-suck ability but only a handful of hp, etc.

It really depends on the creatures type. Outsides, regardless of combat role, tend to have a CR = HD, while undead tend to have rather inflated HD's, except for the ones that are primarily casters with class levels. There really isn't a constant variable that you can base those stats on.

I'm making the assumption that basing stats directly on CR means decoupling HD from its many 'satellite stats.' So if for example you're tweaking a monster, or writing a new one, it doesn't have to have insane base saves just because it has a lot of HD.

Try 4e, or learn to eyeball it. I got good at both those :P

As excellent as those suggestions may be, the point of this thread is to create more exact CR guidelines for 3e. So let's save the thread crapping for at least the second page, thanks.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Let's start with something simple: attacks and AC. If we assume that a heavy tanker PC has the following stats (I know, I know, when we assume...):

Level 1: +4 AB (+1 BAB, +3 ability)
Level 1: 17 AC (+6 armor, +1 ability)
Level 20: +36 AB (+20 BAB, +11 ability, +5 weapon)
Level 20: 36 AC (+13 armor, +3 ability, +5 deflection, +5 natural)

That means that tanker PC AB increases at about +1.5 per level, and AC increases at about +1 per level. So, (1) should monster AC keep pace with PC AB or should it fall a bit behind? and (2) should monster AB keep pace with PC AC or should it pull ahead?

I have my own opinions, but I'd like to know what you think.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

My method, and one that seems to work sufficiently well for anything over 1 HD and under 20...

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.