Lizardman Barbarian

[daggaz]

My DM is starting a new campaign, which I expect to be pretty cool.

Its in the eberron setting, we start underground and naked at ECL 3, basically we are a party of prisoners sent down into the underdark to retrieve a mcguffin or die trying. Elves are considered food, goblins are the dominant society, and some of the party may very well be green.

Its core and Eberron only, tho my DM is cool and lenient and has already ok'd
intimidating strike and extra rage (PHB2) as possible feats. We've got 28 point buy (sigh) and Ive chosen to play a lizardman barbarian due to party makeup and campaign considerations. Being naked in the underdark at lvl 3 is more than enough to make me all sorts of happy about natural armor 5. We will be using LA buyback. EDIT: pls note that a lizardman ECL 3 starts the game classless.

My stats so far with racial mods
16 str
15 dex (first point goes here)
18 con
10 int (not optimal i know, but i hate playing stupid, and the dm said he would compensate players who balance rather than minmax completely)
8 wis
8 cha

I figured I would take full advantage of my jump skill, and as long as im light load and naked or in light armor, I have a movement of 40 ft and start the game with a jump check of 16. Kind of a cool character style, I think, a springy lizard...

Anyhow I am a bit boned on what kind of feats to take, I am thinking power attack and switch between a longspear and a greatclub (flavor again, as well we are unlikely to find high end items in the beginning) and otherwise.. hmm i Just Dont Know.

Skills I will be maxing to my best are Jump, Climb and Listen, followed by intimidate when I get Climb up to appropriate levels.

So any advice? Party roll is obviously beatstick, I am the tank, there is a bugbear rogue (houseruled LA fix), a human psion, a cleric, and a wizard of some sorts.

EDIT: If you recommend feats from other books, plz name the book so I can find it and show it to my DM. No splat books.

[daggaz]

Not sure how you are getting all those feats.

I have one from my racial HD. At third level (my first barbarian level) I will have a second feat. My third will come at 6th lvl, but of course I will be buying off my LA on my fifth HD (third Barb lvl) so that will be a while. Campaign will probably only run til around 10th lvl, but who knows, sometimes we go a lot further.

Dipping fighter in the beginning is not something the DM will allow me to do, as we are down in the underdark and I wont have any exposure to it. So you pick a class and go with it, and if you want to multi, you need some exposure somehow.

[daggaz]

Its a DM decision, and one that I am entirely comfortable playing under. He dislikes powergaming, there is a strong focus on storytelling and fluff. This idea that you are "trained" somehow in your class is even mentioned in the DMG, I believe.

Your own statements sum it up perfectly. I start the game with no "military training" so no fighter there (I could choose to be a fighter from lvl one of course, but I am not) and as far as learning from sparring from my friends... well none of them are fighters, so its not like Im going to learn any tricks from them.

Basically the decision preserves versimilitude and prevents "dipping" and obtuse, optimization builds that have little regard to how you pick things up..

At any rate, I start the level classless (2racial HD and 1 LA) so any progress is going to be slow, and I am going barbarian.

[daggaz]

But how is a Barbarian/Fighter obstuse, or powergaming?


So write it into your backstory.

"My father made sure to teach me the riddle of steel so that my strengh would be channeled effectively against my foes."

Fighter2/Barb X is neither obtuse nor powergaming, but it is the beginning of dip builds that incorporate 5 different prestige classes etc, and thats what he does not want, and I am fine with that..

I could start fighter and fall into barbarianism, and Im sure he would accept that kind of thing. As well I could possibly start barbarian, and spontaneously hone my skills, but it would be bad taste to "hone" them for two levels and go straight back... he would expect to then stay in fighter unless something dramatic in the story gave a good reason to switch again.

At any rate, I start CLASSLESS (lizardman lvl 3) so my backstory doesnt exactly include other classes, does it? Please actually read the original post before responding, thank you.

I will look into endurance/steadfast feat combo, i never really thought about doing that as I was more focused on melee things.

[TSED]

He has stated he has no problem with that ruling.

Maybe you should stop telling him how to play his character? That's generally considered bad form in any medium.

[Gaiyamato]

Can you get hold of the Quintessential Barbarian II?
The book is pretty tame and non-powergamey for the most part.

You might be able to pass this feat by the DM if your lucky, it is one of my personally favourite feats in the whole damn game for high con fighter types:

Will To Live
The barbarian is the ultimate survivor, one who is
unwilling to roll over and die before the swords and
arrows of the civilised man; it is for the barbarian alone to
decide the time and manner of his death.
Prerequisites: Con 15+, Iron Will
Benefits: When reduced to 0 hit points or less, you are
neither staggered, nor rendered unconscious, nor do you
lose hit points. In addition, you do not die until reduced
to –10 + your Constitution modifier in hit points. Should
you be reduced to that negative total, you drop dead
immediately.

Might be a bit hard though with only two feat available, maybe something to shoot for later.
Unless you want to start with Iron Will and Will To Live

The follow on feat for that one is:

Wounded Animal
An animal is most dangerous when it is cornered and
wounded. So, too, are you.
Prerequisites: Con 15+, Iron Will, Will to Live, ability
to rage
Benefits: The closer you get to death, the more powerful
you become. When reduced to ½ of your hit point total
or less, by any means, you gain a +2 morale bonus to
Strength. When reduced to ¼ of your total hit points or
less, your morale bonus to Strength increases to +4. The
bonuses to Strength gained via this feat stack with those
provided by the barbarian’s rage class ability.
Special: For the purposes of this feat, extra hit points
gained from your rage ability’s Constitution bonus are
considered a part of your normal hit point total, as are
temporary hit points gained from spells, spell-like effects,
or magic items.

In the underdark, naked, these feats would probably save your life. :)

[Innis Cabal]

Your not classless, you've racial class levels. I think that PH is getting at is the logic behind saying no level 1 fighter is silly and not game breaking. He isn't wrong over all, but he isn't -correct- for this discussion.

[Gaiyamato]

Sorry.. only 1 feat. My suggestion is no good. :(

*ping*

Lizardman - Half Troll Barbarians look nasty for NPCs this time of year...

*makes one for his players to face*

[daggaz]

Your not classless, you've racial class levels. I think that PH is getting at is the logic behind saying no level 1 fighter is silly and not game breaking. He isn't wrong over all, but he isn't -correct- for this discussion.

Yeah, its technical. I have two levels in lizardman. I prefer to call them racial hard die, as that is how they are generally referred to throughout the DMG and the MM. "Class" is generally thought of as a Player Character class.

Level 1 Fighter is totally allowed.. I could even go fighter in the beginning, then fall into barbarianism (I am sure my DM would allow it, but he wouldnt be totally pleased) but to be honest I dont want to. Having a ton of feats is nice, but I would rather just use what I have.

Please I would like to hear about good feat choices for a straight up clean barbarian, at least the first three or four, doubt we will get farther than that. If they can incorporate my awesome jumping ability, all the better.

[daggaz]

Sorry.. only 1 feat. My suggestion is no good. :(

*ping*

Lizardman - Half Troll Barbarians look nasty for NPCs this time of year...

*makes one for his players to face*

No its ok, I am looking for builds that go into the entirety of the campaign, not just where we start. Thanks for the input, going to try to find that book as well cuz well, I just think barbarians are worth it =)

[Innis Cabal]

Yeah, its technical. I have two levels in lizardman. I prefer to call them racial hard die, as that is how they are generally referred to throughout the DMG and the MM. "Class" is generally thought of as a Player Character class.

Level 1 Fighter is totally allowed.. I could even go fighter in the beginning, then fall into barbarianism (I am sure my DM would allow it, but he wouldnt be totally pleased) but to be honest I dont want to. Having a ton of feats is nice, but I would rather just use what I have.

Please I would like to hear about good feat choices for a straight up clean barbarian, at least the first three or four, doubt we will get farther than that. If they can incorporate my awesome jumping ability, all the better.

You mean hit die

And frankly, there are no good "barbarian" feats that arnt' equally good fighter feats at those levels which are "mostly core only". Your asking for something that just...well it just isn't there for you to get.

[Gaiyamato]

If you take Power attack and your DM okays this you could take Leap attack later on which fluff wise works well with the leapy lizard barbarian thing.
I could just image you you with Power attack, up the walls and leap attack and a great axe. Like a Gecko on steriods. rofl.

Leap attack is from Complete Adventurer.


Check this site out. I use it all the time.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml

Also the Wizards index of feats:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats

One other thing I sometimes allow if starting above level 1 is for players to discard the racial HD and the racial skill points feat etc. and use the LA and base abilities and score changes only. Then you get more levels of an appropriate class. In your case I'd limit you to barbarian. But say for example a demonic character might be limited to Warlock.
Thats just one of my home rules. lol.

EDIT:

Have you considered that perhaps there is a reason why everyone is "picking you to death"?

You know. I don't see any reason for you guys to pick on him.
Sometimes it is nice to have a heavily restricted hard fought game of fairly mediocre characters.

I'd play this game, though not sure if I'd take a race with LA. But Lizardman is a good pick.

[Gaiyamato]

I see no problem on a zero tolerace policy for dipping into other base classes for a once off campaign. I actually kind of like the idea after all the power builds people come up with these days. I might run my next campaign the same way. :)

Though I'd allow the following for base classes:

PHB Classes
Tome of Magic
PHB II Classes - No duskblade or dragon shaman
Scout
Archivst
Warlock
Swordsage

Then just run a setting-less campaign. Heavily restrict prestige classes to what can be gained fluff wise during rp only.


------------------------------

daggaz he can only ruin your thread if you reply to him and take it all personally. Just chill and lets discuss your options. He might even get more constructive after a short while anyway. ;)

[daggaz]

Hey thanks man, you are right and I appreciate the effort on your part. Will look into leap attack, and yeah I love that feat site, found that a few years ago!

[Gaiyamato]

No probs. Any time. :)

[daggaz]

*big sigh* no matter what I cant seem to convince my DM to accept leap attack. Shame as it is by far the coolest feat for this character concept, but he is worried that he will end up oneshotting to many pc's with it if he lets it into his world. *big sigh*

[Gaiyamato]

Go for pure survival then.
In the underdark that is a good option always. lol.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

This is, in essence, what I have an issue with. the same nonsensical attitude that bans harmless multiclassing also prevents players from enjoying fun character concepts.

[Gnorman]

How has this thread gone on for so long without someone making a "Leapin' Lizards!" joke?

Oh. Wait. Right. I just did.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That's it. You are so getting a mind crush.

[Gaiyamato]

This is, in essence, what I have an issue with. the same nonsensical attitude that bans harmless multiclassing also prevents players from enjoying fun character concepts.

I must kind of agree with you there. Leap attack is not such a nasty feat, though it can be made so with combination of other feats and abilities.
But in such a toned down game A simple Lizardman Barbarian with power attack and leap attack.. and nothing else! Should not be an issue I would have thought.

But ours is not to question. lol.

I quite like the idea of a leaping lizard. Might use it one day. :)
I think there is a dex feat somewhere that lets you leap over opponents heads as a move in close combat and then combined with up the walls would make for an amusing "leapin lizard" indeed. :)

[daggaz]

While I dont agree much at all with his reasoning for not allowing leap attack (there are a million ways a GM can oneshot partymembers just in core, and a billion reasons why good GMs of course do not do so, as well as plenty of fluff and mechanical ways to avoid doing it) especially as it is by far the coolest possible RP and mechanical concept for my character, I am going to just abide by his rulings. Its his world, and he does tend to make a very detailed and cool sandbox to play in. I did try debating it for a good long time tho. Oh well. Really I think he is just avoiding the slippery slope of powergaming.. if I get leap attack, which is NOT in the books he supposedly was limiting to, then other players will suddenly want to open up towards maybe planar shepard (obvious exaggeration) etc..etc... Still.. *big sigh*

Yeah, I am looking at either Endurance/Steadfast Determination for pure survivability (I actually like that endurance lets me sleep in my barb armor),

or Power Attack/Intimidating Strike (for meleers I like feats that mesh with their skills and are useable in battle)

or Extra Rage/Raging Luck for taking advantage of Eberrons action point system.

The last one is probably number three for what I want, the first one is probably the most useful for long term survivabilty, but the second one seems like it would be the most fun.

Plus who knows, maybe after a few levels, when people have some hitpoints and the group has gelled nicely, he might suddenly allow leap attack, and then Ive got the right prereq.

[daggaz]

I quite like the idea of a leaping lizard. Might use it one day. :)
I think there is a dex feat somewhere that lets you leap over opponents heads as a move in close combat and then combined with up the walls would make for an amusing "leapin lizard" indeed. :)

Ooh that sounds interesting, any idea what books those are in? Anything that lets me take advantage of my jump skill is going to be A-priority in my book right now.

[Zen Master]

*big sigh* no matter what I cant seem to convince my DM to accept leap attack. Shame as it is by far the coolest feat for this character concept, but he is worried that he will end up oneshotting to many pc's with it if he lets it into his world. *big sigh*

Really, you shouldn't worry too much about leap attack. I happen to know what sort of enemies you'll be facing, and doing ... lets say 50 damage to an enemy with 15 hp isn't really all that relevant.

I also happen to know that a great number of challenges will be better defeated with skills and roleplay than with big numbers.

Yea ... none may hide from the all-seeing eye!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Really I think he is just avoiding the slippery slope of powergaming.. if I get leap attack, which is NOT in the books he supposedly was limiting to, then other players will suddenly want to open up towards maybe planar shepard (obvious exaggeration) etc..etc... Still.. *big sigh*

Who does he think he is, Emmanuel Kant?

[daggaz]

Yea ... none may hide from the all-seeing eye!

Ha ha! Your avatar looks like you! What is that dog doing to your leg, tho??

I somehow doubt I will be doing 50 damage. its more like 1d10 + 18 ...and wont enemies be levelling up with us as well? As well, melee is just one part of the game, you know I pimped my skills and you know I will RP as well. Anyhoo..

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yea ... none may hide from the all-seeing eye!

[daggaz]

Bleh.. Up the Walls requires wis 13... not going to happen. =( as well I think I have to psionically focus, which I cant, not having any power points. Otherwise a cool feat.

[Gaiyamato]

Yeah the other one I was thinking was bounding assault.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...unding_Assault

Too many feats required and for much higer levels.

Other amusing feats that would suit you but you cannot get:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...shopper_Strike
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...gendary_Leaper
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...Mighty_Leaping

Feats that would suit that you can take:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...Of_The_Heavens
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vault

lol. This would be such an amusing character.

[Zen Master]

Who does he think he is, Emmanuel Kant?

Yes - yes I do.