LA for a Lantern Archon?

[Kobold-Bard]

I'm looking to play a Lantern Archon in a D&D 3.5 game, and in order to build a decent backstory I need to be able to see it's mechanics in front of me.

So I ask, does anyone have any ideas regarding a Level Adjustment for Lantern Archons. I've seen ideas of 3-4, does this seem ok, especially compared to other Celestial creatures (as the other players will be).

Thanks in advance.

(Unrelated but YAY, I is a Bugbear now )

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, a Lantern Archon has no LA, so unless your DM waives that, they are unfit for playing as a character. Since they have no arms, they can't use weapons; as well, since they are essentially sentient photons, they cannot use armor as typical, nor they have slots for magic items. They can't prepare spells like a wizard as they have no way of holding, let alone writing, on spellbooks. They can probably pass off as sorcerers or favored souls, but they won't be able to even handle the most basic components because they have no way to do somatics.

So, in essence, it's just improbable to use a lantern archon. Now, a Hound Archon is fair game. They get six outsider levels and +5 LA, for a grand total of ECL 11.

[Eldan]

I'm the DM in question, and I'd allow it, if it could be balanced somehow. If he wants to play something challenging, fine with me.

Now, let's look at what they get...

* -10 STR, -4 INT
* Small size
* 60 feet perfect fly speed
* +4 natural armor bonus.
* Light Ray: deals 1d6 damage on a touch and ignores all damage reductions and resistances. useful on low levels, probably quite useless later.
* Archon Traits (see page 16): Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, aura of menace (Will DC 12 + character’s Cha modifier), immunity to electricity and petrification, +4 racial bonus on saves against poison, magic circle against evil, teleport, tongues.
* Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities (aid, detect evil, continual flame at will)
* Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/evil and magic
* Automatic Languages: Celestial
* Favored class: ?
* Level adjustment: ?

Let's look at what classes you could play, with one:
Pretty much anything that needs a weapon is out, which mostly leaves spellcasters, psionicists and a few other similar classes. I'd be willing to handwave somatic components since you have no hands.

Now from those:
Wizards need spellbooks, so you would have huge problems.
Sorcerers might work with Eschew materials.
Clerics: you can't hold a symbol...
Favored souls are another possibility, as are warlocks, though that would require quite some justification and reflavoring, since they can't be lawful good.

Quite honestly, I'm asking myself if it needs a level adjustment at all: not being able to use pretty much any and all equipment is a huge hit in effectivity (you might be interested in the vow of poverty, though). Light ray gets uneffective soon.
The only good things you get are darkvision, natural armor, a few immunities and a circle of protection.
So, the LA wouldn't need to be that high.

[Gaiyamato]

They aren't incorporeal are they? Cannot seem to read that anywhere.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm

There is a feat which lets you cast light and ray spells from your eyes. So a character without arms can cast spells. Cannot remember the name now.

If he takes that and levels in sorcerer and specialised in all the cool ray feats he would be fairly awesome.

Also if they are ruled to be incorporeal then you could use Ghostly Grasp.

Another idea is to look into ost walk.
If he can "count" as a Ghost for purpose of feats he could form ectoplasma and manipulate items as if he had arms.

He could "walk" around "in" armor "wielding" weapons then and would make a very awesomely themed paladin. :)

Other option is Truenamer. All he needs to do is speak.

Looking at them though I don't think it needs a LA at all.
They are fairly handicapped.

[Eldan]

While Truenamer is technically an option, it's also ridiculously bad.

I think I have ghostwalk lying around somewhere, though. I might go check it out again, haven't done so in a while. They are not technically incorporeal, though, you can hit them normally. Despite them being balls of light.

[Kobold-Bard]

Thanks Eldan, if we call it LA+1, and I'll fill up on Sorcerer/Psion/Favoured Soul?
I might look into VoP, never used it, but it would certainly save some bother.

As I said I need an at least half-done sheet as a sort of focus for my story.

[Eldan]

Well, actually Vow of Poverty is considered weaker than equipment, but also saves you the problem of digging through 20+ books trying to find optimal items. If you can cast spells, you can compensate for some of the weaknesses of the VoP.
If you take VoP and a spellcasting class, I think we can leave it at LA+1. I recommend a few Telekinesis Spells, though. Maybe Unseen Servant.

[Kobold-Bard]

Well, actually Vow of Poverty is considered weaker than equipment, but also saves you the problem of digging through 20+ books trying to find optimal items. If you can cast spells, you can compensate for some of the weaknesses of the VoP.
If you take VoP and a spellcasting class, I think we can leave it at LA+1. I recommend a few Telekinesis Spells, though. Maybe Unseen Servant.

Thanks much.

[Gaiyamato]

Looking it over LA of 2-3 seems appropriate. I would say 3 given they can teleport and a few other odds and ends.
They would not count as incorporeal but I'd say let him count as a Ghost/Spirit.

Check out Eidolon and Eidoloncer Class as well.

say LA 3 I would go:

Level 1-3: Lantern Archon
Level 4: Sorcerer 1
Level 1: Eschew Materials
Level 5: Eidoloncer 1 (+1 Spell progression)
Ghost Feat: Ghost Hand
Level 6: Eidoloncer 2 (+1 Spell progression)

From there look at the following feats:
Anything involving the word "Ray":

Weapon Focus (Ray)
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...s.pl?Ray_Burst
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-....pl?Ray_Coning
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...?Ray_Extension
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...s.pl?Ray_Focus
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...?Ray_Splitting
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...Specialization
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...s.pl?Split_Ray

and:

Ectoplasm
Shape Ectoplasm
Temper Ectoplasm
<-- with these three he could manifest a suit of full plate armor, hide himself in it and animate it as if it were walking. He could use it to hold weapons and all. lol.

[JellyPooga]

...as are warlocks, though that would require quite some justification and reflavoring, since they can't be lawful good.

Warlock could be a very good choice thematically (if you handwave the Alignment restriction); Eldritch Blast shares qualities with Light Ray (30ft range, 1d6 damage, overcomes all DR). Sure EB is (Sp) rather than (Ex) and as written Light Ray can be used twice on a full-attack, but you could always homebrew a Blast Essence and Blast Shape to replicate that (Essence - Extraordinary Blast: Your eldritch blast is treated as an extraordinary ability. Shape - Rapid Blast: You can make one additional blast when you use a full-round action).

Invocations can easily be fluffed to fit an Archon too; Baleful Utterance = Divine Utterance for example.

[RebelRogue]

Psionics seems like a good choice to me here. Although the class sucks, I find the idea of a Soulknife Lantern Archon to be fun. You're definitely better off with, say, psion, but still, I like the idea.

[Eldan]

Good ideas about the warlock there. With a little reflavoring and keeping your hands away from the more evil stuff, this could work well, since you don't even need any components. You could perhaps make a feat to add your ray of light to your eldritch blast or something, too. Some of the invocations could be rewritten without too much trouble as well, giving you some non-evil variants.

[Kobold-Bard]

In all honesty I'm already playing a Warlock in another game, so I'll pass on that. Looks like I'll be either a Sorcerer or Psion.

As interesting as a floating tennis ball with a greatsword would be, I think I'll pass on Soulknife.

[Sinfire Titan]

Psionics seems like a good choice to me here. Although the class sucks, I find the idea of a Soulknife Lantern Archon to be fun. You're definitely better off with, say, psion, but still, I like the idea.

Lantern Archon PsiWar with VoP>Every. Soulknife. Ever.

[Kobold-Bard]

Lantern Archon PsiWar with VoP>Every. Soulknife. Ever.

What in the name of Celestia kind of weapon would it wield?

[Sinfire Titan]

What in the name of Celestia kind of weapon would it wield?

Lasers. Holy Lasers, shot from it's nonexistent eyes.

The PsiWar levels are for buffs/Metamorphosis.

[Kobold-Bard]

I'll pass all the same.

Lantern Archon Sorcerer ftw.

Thanks for the help everyone.

[woodenbandman]

Wilder. Wild Surge can help overcome the level adjustment a bit, but you'll pretty much be stuck with, like, spamming Astral Construct all day.

[lord_khaine]

i would say its worth at most 1 level, the severe disadvances he faces makes it about equal with a standart human very fast.

also the huge hit it takes on int makes psion levels troublesome, though since they are not incorporal, then i think it would be possible for one to become a cleric, and carry a small holy symbol around.

[Armoury99]

i think it would be possible for one to become a cleric, and carry a small holy symbol around.

Or the DM could rule that the Lantern Archon doesn't need one, since he's a living embodment of Lawful Goodness as it is. Sure its an advantage but he/she/it is screwed if her alignment changes. Maybe go for a spntaneous divine caster, like the one from Unearthed Arcana). Bard might also be nice, since he can just hang around singing.

You know, I'm starting to really like this plucky little guy

[Eldan]

Oh, hey Armory. Didn't know you were on this forum!

I even tried to run Desire & The Dead once here, but it collapsed righ taway.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm looking to play a Lantern Archon in a D&D 3.5 game, and in order to build a decent backstory I need to be able to see it's mechanics in front of me.

So I ask, does anyone have any ideas regarding a Level Adjustment for Lantern Archons. I've seen ideas of 3-4, does this seem ok, especially compared to other Celestial creatures (as the other players will be).

Thanks in advance.

(Unrelated but YAY, I is a Bugbear now )

Fr0om Jade_Tarem's Guide to Savage Play (or using Savage Sprcies for profit)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109496

Lantern Archon (MM1) - A cute little ball of light. The Lantern Archons are most typically portrayed as messengers and guides of a holy bent - similar to Navi from Ocarina of Time, but a lot less annoying. I've already shown you my Lantern Archon example, but let's try to take a look at what a balanced version of this thing looks like.

WotC did not give Lantern Archons a level adjustment, although they certainly could have. Lantern Archons would be what the Savage species guide considers a "difficult" character - they have no hands, no legs, no discernable anatomy of any sort, and a whopping huge strength penalty. That pretty much precludes any sort of martial or physical-skill oriented build.

That leaves spellcasting. But even there we have problems with material components and, more importantly, somatic components. It is considered difficult to cast spells with no hands. The good news is, Lantern Archons do have a functional voice. Fortunately, the use of two feats (ouch) can overcome these disadvantages - the first is Eschew Materials, from the PHB. The second is one from the SSG called Surrogate Spellcasting - essentially it lets you cast spells with somatic components dispite a lack of hands, as long as you have something else to cast it with.

"But Jade," you say, "LOL, dude, the Lantern Archon is just a ball of light. What is it going to cast with?" I thought about this, and you could come up with any number of things - that it's bobbing in the air, or changing shape somewhat. Note that you still suffer penalites to spellcasting while grappled and cannot cast while immobilized. Surrogate Spellcasting does not preclude the necessity of somatic components, it merely allows you to get around a lack of opposable thumbs.

So that fixes the anatomy problems. But now we have a new issue - Lantern Archons have an Int penalty. Well, there goes wizard - but then, you couldn't carry a spellbook anyway. So that leaves druid, cleric, and sorcerer for class options, and it is there that I suggest you look - probably into cleric (not CoDzilla) or Sorcerer, since Druid will likely mess you up completely.

Special Note: You'll have a difficult time casting spells with expensive material components even with the Eschew Materials feat - EM only gets you out of having to use things like Bat Guano, it doesn't fill in for 10,000gp worth of diamond dust or a large ruby.

Then it's up to you to decide just how much you want to be a ball of light. You see, Lantern Archons are still subject to all sorts of interesting things, such as poison and critical hits, that you think they would be immune to, being a creature made entirely out of holy photons. So talk it over with your DM and see if he thinks you should be granted the extra immunities, and then figure out the appropriate level adjustment. Remember that you'll get some help here from your lousy stats (-1 or -2 LA, depending...) and that you can swap your first HD (and the appropriate modifiers to hp, saves, and such) for your first class level, and you'll have a maneuverable, difficult to kill sorcerer/cleric in no time. "Hey! Listen!"

Should be LA 2-3 at most.

[Glimbur]

You might want to steal his Greater Teleport at will ability... while not an encounter breaker in and of itself, it can do very unexpected things.

[Eldan]

Actually, since the entire party will consist of celestials of high level, they will all have it.

[Devils_Advocate]

It only looks like a ball of light. It's just round and glowy. Evidently.

The lantern archon is definitely an odd case. It has some very good advantages, but also a handicap that prevents them from really synergizing with any class like they could for a normal character who can, y'know, pick things up.

I can see a lantern archon cleric of a sun god being its own holy symbol.

The light rays could be OK with some bonus damage, I think. So Rogue is another class to consider. Just put those skill points into perception and social skills. Of course, the rays are a ranged attack, so flanking is out. You'd need some means of concealment. So, maybe Rogue for Sneak Attack, Sorcerer for greater invisibility and the occasional more powerful ray, then Arcane Trickster?

Not that straight Sorcerer wouldn't be OK, but it doesn't really play to any of the race's strengths, except by the lantern archon's defenses making a Sorcerer less vulnerable.

[Eldan]

Strangely, I just had a look at the planescape books, and Lantern Archons are explicitely stated to be incorporeal there.
Well, another strange change between editions.

[derfenrirwolv]

Just become a cleric of pelor

My holy symbol is a bright miniature sun!

So... where are you keeping it?

.....

Rogue could be nasty. Improved initiative and just ray people in the face when they're flat footed for sneak attack damage.

[sebsmith]

Why hasn't anybody said this yet? Scout, we can skirmish with the light ray and should have no problem activating it with a 60 ft perfect fly speed. Now all we need is an ability to take extra move actions that fits on a floating ball of light so that we can full attack with the light ray and still get skirmish.

[Eldan]

Another question: what would people think should the LA be for a Lantern Archon that is incorporeal? +3? +4?

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm not sure, but I'd be inclined to compare it to the pixie, which also gets a fairly solid array of defenses. Hmm... Looking at the two next to each other and taking into account that the pixie is arguably under-LAed, I'd say... that I'm not sure how much at-will teleportation is worth relative to at-will invisibility. Anyway, its offense definitely isn't better than a pixie's, so no more than +4.

Making a lantern archon incorporeal would cost it its natural armor bonus, but of course it would need it a lot less. It would also gain a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (minimum 1).

You might want to decide on its exact diameter, to figure out how deep an object it can pass through. (You don't want to teleport to the other side if you don't yet know whether there's an open space there, right?) Or just get rid of the "but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior" thing, which is pretty weird.