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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Mephibosheth's Avatar

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    Default They're like Warforged, but softer...

    So, over in the Community World-Building Forum we're working on a world that has just been through a devastating plague, known as the Weeping. It was suggested that we could have as one of the player races a living construct similar to Warforged, except made of parts of the bodies of plague victims. Essentially, the goal is to create a race that is to flesh golems what Warforged are to metallic golems. While we haven’t agreed upon the exact flavor and origin story we want for the race (which we’ve dubbed “the Fleshwrought”), I’ve drawn up some preliminary stats that I’d like people to take a look. I’m especially interested in balance issues, since this is only the third race I’ve created, and I don’t really have that much experience, especially with the effect that some of the more unique abilities will have on Level Adjustment. I figured I’d post them here so that some of the race/monster-making wizards on this board can look over it, and to increase the likelihood of getting some responses (cuz the traffic on the other board is a lot lower).

    Fleshwrought Racial Traits
    • Abilities score modifications vary as shown below.
    • Medium: As Medium creatures, Fleshwrought have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    • Fleshwrought base speed is 30 feet.
    • Living Construct: Fleshwrought have all the benefits and penalties associated with the Living Construct subtype.
    • Diseased Mind: Because of the ravages of the Weeping, a Fleshwrought’s mind is exceedingly confused and warped. This makes it difficult for spellcasters to affect Fleshwrought with mind-affecting magic, granting the Fleshwrought a +2 racial bonus to saves against Mind-Affecting spells and effects.
    • Electric Affinity: Due to the arcane processes surrounding its creation, a Fleshwrought reacts differently to electricity than other creatures. Fleshwrought are immune to electricity damage. Additionally, when subject to an attack or effect that deals electricity damage, a Fleshwrought gains a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class as a result of the increased energy. This bonus does not apply if the Fleshwrought is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. This bonus lasts for 2d6 rounds.
    • Natural Armor: Fleshwrought have a +1bonus to natural armor.
    • Fleshwrought gain a +2 racial bonus to Intimidate checks due to their grotesque appearance. However, they take a -4 penalty to any Charisma checks or Charisma-based skill checks with the exception of Intimidate checks.
    • Favored Class: See below.
    • Level Adjustment: +1


    Fleshwrought Ability Modifiers – Roll 1d6 to randomly determine the composition of the Fleshwrought.
    • +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma – Composed of assorted body parts, including the limbs of large, muscular humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition is strong, but has a scrambled mind and a subdued personality. Favored Class: Fighter.
    • +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom – Composed largely of the bodies of heavy-set humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition can take a lot of physical punishment, but is not very alert or creative. Favored Class: Barbarian.
    • +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma – Composed of the limbs of slight, agile humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition is quick and nimble, but somewhat rash. Favored Class: Rogue.


    So, that’s it. Please let me know what you think. Also, if you have any suggestions for new/different abilities, or how to make these abilities cooler, post up. Finally, if you have any ideas about what the flavor should be, especially as to the origin story, post them here. The first post contains the basic idea, and some of the subsequent ones elaborate.

    Let me know what you think!

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Race for the Giantitp Campaign Setting (PE

    Sounds ALOT like the Undead Abominations from Warcraft III, I love it ;D.

    *steals idea*
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    I like the idea. I'm not much of an expert here, but I will point out that since rogues are often skill-based, an Intelligence penalty hurts them. A Charisma penalty can be bad for them also, as a lot of their skills focus on that. It's not a huge imposition, since the penalties definitely make sense for the racial idea, but you might want to either change that around a little or change the favored class.

    Also, it might be cool to give them disease-related abilities, though they might be tricky to keep balanced.
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Immunity to Electricity and +1 NA for a +1 LA...hmm.

    I think perhaps you should give them a few extra bonuses and make them a +3. Either that, or make the electricity immunity a resistance.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Thanks for the replies, everyone! I really appreciate it. Glad you like the idea.

    The Snark:

    I agree that intelligence and charisma penalties could make for sub-par rogues. I think that I'll take away the variation in favored class and make fighter the favored class for all compositions of Fleshwrought.

    Also, the idea is that these were made of the body parts of plague victims, so the disease would not be alive in their bodies anymore. Also, as you said, disease-related abilities would make them a bit more powerful than we want. We're striving to make them a player race, which means a low LA.

    Wih:

    Now that you mention it, they do seem a bit strong for LA +1 (I'm not so good at determining level adjustments). What if I brought it down to Electricity Resistance 15? Would that bring it back into LA +1 territory? They do have some pretty hefty penalties, including net ability score penalties and only 1/2 healing from normal Cure spells (part of the living construct subtype). How do you think removing the natural armor would affect the level adjustment?

    I'm really trying to keep these guys available to low-level PC's without losing the flavor of watered-down flesh golems. Would making the above changes be enough to keep it LA +1, or is there something else I should do?

    Thanks again for the comments. Keep 'em coming! Also, we can always use help over in the Community World Building Forum. There are some pretty cool ideas being discussed, and anyone who wants to chip in is welcome.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Generally speaking, an Immunity is worth a +1 or a +2 to LA (depending on what resistance - electricity is common, so +2), and any NA bonus is worth a +1 at least (as it gives you better AC, and access to NA based feats).


    ....I just noticed they have the Living Construct subtype.

    Make than an LA +5 for this race.

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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wih
    Generally speaking, an Immunity is worth a +1 or a +2 to LA (depending on what resistance - electricity is common, so +2), and any NA bonus is worth a +1 at least (as it gives you better AC, and access to NA based feats).


    ....I just noticed they have the Living Construct subtype.

    Make than an LA +5 for this race.
    NA is not worth much. Kobolds get it.
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Quote Originally Posted by beezly

    NA is not worth much. Kobolds get it.
    Kobolds also get net -4 to stats and light blindness.

    Savage Species (the book of creating PC Monsters) also specifies that any NA bonus is a +1 LA, and any NA over 5 is a +2.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Keep in mind, I'm not terribly experienced at balancing here, but I'd say they make an LA +2 probably, because of the Electricity Immunity. Other than that, they're basically warforged. I'd like to say though, that at a +2 LA, and with those stat modifiers I can't really see anybody choosing to play one, other than to be a scary fleshy thing. So I'd consider knocking the LA down to +1. I mean, the racial stats are poor, and the Electricity immunity probably won't come into play very often.
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Don't use Warforged as a benchmark - they're broken.
    Living Constructs get immunty to Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Nausea, Energy Drain, Fatigue, Exhaustion and Desease. They don't need to eat, sleep or breathe.

    EDIT: Oh, and they can also be healed by Arcane AND Divine magic.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Warforged aren't broken. They're just really good at what they were made for, war.

    They receive only half the affect of cure spells and don't heal naturally which really does level out their other abilities. They are also especially vulnerable to spells that affect metal/wood/constucts which further counters there limited immunities.

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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    OK, Wih...

    What if I removed the immunities to poison, paralysis, fatigue, and exhaustion, as well as requiring that the Fleshwrought eat? I mean, it makes sense that a being made of flesh would be subject to attacks on the flesh, even if the being is animated by magic. For example, a poison that causes deterioration of muscles would still harm the Fleshwrought, because its muscles would atrophy. You could also render a Fleshwrought immobile by preventing its muscles from moving, and it would need fuel (food) to maintain its body, rendering it suceptible to fatigue as its fuel is spent. Would this, combined with Energy Resistance 15 and no NA bonus make it more reasonable. If not, what changes would you suggest?

    Honestly, I disagree that living construct subtype is worth the level adjustment you claim. Yeah, those are some pretty sweet immunities, and it can be healed by two types of magic (but how many arcane casters load up on Repair spells instead of the multitude of other (better) options available, especially when that would mean two members of the party devoted to healing), but is it really worth giving up 3+ character levels? That's 3 hit dice, probably +3 or +2 BAB, 3 levels worth of skill points and save bonuses, and one feat. I don't think there's any real incentive to play a living construct if those are the only things you get and the LA is that high. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't get your reasoning and that list of immunities doesn't convince me. Perhaps if you elaborated more...

    Thanks for your help, everyone.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth
    OK, Wih...

    What if I removed the immunities to poison, paralysis, fatigue, and exhaustion, as well as requiring that the Fleshwrought eat? I mean, it makes sense that a being made of flesh would be subject to attacks on the flesh, even if the being is animated by magic. For example, a poison that causes deterioration of muscles would still harm the Fleshwrought, because its muscles would atrophy. You could also render a Fleshwrought immobile by preventing its muscles from moving, and it would need fuel (food) to maintain its body, rendering it suceptible to fatigue as its fuel is spent. Would this, combined with Energy Resistance 15 and no NA bonus make it more reasonable. If not, what changes would you suggest?
    If you're going to strip out all of those things, you may as well drop the Living Construct subtype.
    If you drop the Immunity to resistance 15, and drop the NA, then they're quite a weak race (LA+0 at the best), not counting the Living Construct stuff.
    My personal take on the race would be Electricity Resistance 10, +2 to any physical stat, -2 to any 2 mental stats, +2 against Mind Effecting Effects, and the Charisma check penalties, as a LA+0 race. Increase the Electricity resistance to 15, add in another +2 to a physical stat, and chuck in some NA and make it LA+2, perhaps.

    Honestly, I disagree that living construct subtype is worth the level adjustment you claim. Yeah, those are some pretty sweet immunities, and it can be healed by two types of magic (but how many arcane casters load up on Repair spells instead of the multitude of other (better) options available, especially when that would mean two members of the party devoted to healing), but is it really worth giving up 3+ character levels? That's 3 hit dice, probably +3 or +2 BAB, 3 levels worth of skill points and save bonuses, and one feat. I don't think there's any real incentive to play a living construct if those are the only things you get and the LA is that high. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't get your reasoning and that list of immunities doesn't convince me. Perhaps if you elaborated more...
    The only reason that arcane casters didn't get Repair spells is that they didn't exist or need to be used until ebberon. Now that Ebberon's here, every Sorceror will know Repair spells.
    Not healing overnight is nothing. What's your HD in healing per day, when you can get that from one CLW spell, and your party healer will be chucking around more than just one?
    Only getting half health from Conjuration Healing is nasty, yeah, but having Arcane Healing more than offsets it.

    Basically, the downsides to a Living Construct is that they're counted as Constructs (weak to spells that target constructs), can't heal naturally, and get half healing from Conjuration Healing.
    I'd say being able to be healed by a different school, and 7 different immunities (including Energy Drain and Fatigure/Exhaustion) more than makes up for it. Not having to eat, breathe or sleep is also horribly broken, aswell as a trouble for the GM (Who's on watch? Or rather, who's not?)
    On top of this, they automatically stabilize, and don't take damage for making strenous actions when staggered. How aren't Warforged broken for an LA+0 race?

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    What is so terribly game breaking about warforged not eating/sleeping/breathing?

    They miss out on spending a few gp a week to buy supplies. So what?

    They get to guard the group every night. It's not like a smart group won't just have shifts anyway. Most warforged are actually pretty bad at guarding. -2 Wisdom= bad spot checks

    Being able to breath underwater seems like it'd be a cool advantage but then you forget heavy warforged sink like stones and are still vulnerable to pressure damage. Not to mention they can't fight well if they have the wrong weapons.

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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Here's the problems as I see it:
    Compared to the Warforged, they don't have many disadvantages. The Warforged have the following disadvantages to make up for the very powerful Living Construct subtype:
    • No variable armor. They have one specific armor, and wear it all the time. Want to multiclass to Druid when you purchased Mithral Armor at first level? Too bad! Want to be a Wizard who doesn't have to risk a fumble and a Fighter who doesn't get killed? Too bad!
    • These guys can wear armor. Warforged cannot wear armor. They have to stick with what they picked at first level, which is a pretty major limitation.
    • Warforged wuss out in two magic fields (preparatory Wis-based and spontaneous Cha-based, which throws a variety of classes into a brick wall) due to their double minuses. These guys lose out only in one field (preparatory Int-based), since they can pretty much choose what they lose out on (really, how many Clerics/Sorcerers, Druid/Bard or similar dual classes have you seen?).

    I suggest the following:
    • Remove the natural armor or make it so the effect of other armor is somehow reduced or *something*.
    • I'd suggest you remove Diseased Mind. Living Constructs come with plenty of built in immunities already, and this just adds on to the pile.
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    OK, here's the latest version. Let me know what you think. I hope this passes muster, or is at least a step in the right direction.

    Fleshwrought Racial Traits
    • Abilities score modifications vary as shown below.
    • Medium: As Medium creatures, Fleshwrought have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    • Fleshwrought base speed is 30 feet.
    • Living Construct: Fleshwrought have the benefits and penalties associated with the Living Construct subtype. However, Fleshwrought are not immune to poison, paralysis, fatigue, and exhaustion. Also, because the consciousness guiding Fleshwrought is the vestige of a humanoid consciousness, Fleshwrought are vulnerable to effects that only affect humanoids (Charm Person and the like).
    • Electricity Resistance 15
    • Diseased Mind: Because of the ravages of the Weeping, a Fleshwrought’s mind is exceedingly confused and warped. This makes it difficult for spellcasters to affect Fleshwrought with mind-affecting magic, granting the Fleshwrought a +2 racial bonus to saves against Mind-Affecting spells and effects.
    • Electric Affinity: Due to the arcane processes surrounding its creation, a Fleshwrought reacts differently to electricity than other creatures. Additionally, when subject to an attack or effect that deals electricity damage, a Fleshwrought gains a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class as a result of the increased energy. This bonus does not apply if the Fleshwrought is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. This bonus lasts for 2d6 rounds.
    • Fleshwrought gain a +2 racial bonus to Intimidate checks due to their grotesque appearance. However, they take a -4 penalty to any Charisma checks or Charisma-based skill checks with the exception of Intimidate checks.
    • Favored Class: Fighter
    • Level Adjustment: +1


    Fleshwrought Ability Modifiers – Roll 1d6 to randomly determine the composition of the Fleshwrought.
    • +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma – Composed of assorted body parts, including the limbs of large, muscular humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition is strong, but has a scrambled mind and a subdued personality.
    • +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom – Composed largely of the bodies of heavy-set humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition can take a lot of physical punishment, but is not very alert or creative.
    • +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma – Composed of the limbs of slight, agile humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition is quick and nimble, but somewhat rash.


    This version is substantially weaker than previous versions. It loses out on some significant invulnerabilities, as well as natural armor. It also is now vulnerable to humanoid-only spells. I am, however, reluctant to completely jettison the living construt subtype, merely because I don't know what other type to use to reflect the flavor we want.

    Any comments/critiques/suggestions?

    Thanks

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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    Sorry I'm late on this one, but:

    1) Electrical Madness: half damage from electricity every time (no soak from resistance; minimum 1 point damage), or else FORT SAVE FOR HALF when they're struck; if they're already only taking half, they make a second to take none or a quarter (minimum 1)
    AS SOON AS they're shocked they must make a will saving throw DC10+ damage from electrical attack. If they fail they go berserk (as a barbarian) and attack the nearest living creatures for a number of rounds equal to however much they failed their will save by. Example: 5th level lightening bolt spell dmg does 20 points of damage; save for half; Golem save for 1/4. will save DC15 if they pass both, 20 if only the first, 30 if fail all; save or goes berserk.

    sure the PCs could lock them in the room with the evil evoker; but if it's the bbeg, who's been watching them or knows abot the fleshwrought, he could wait until the party is together, zap with a lightening bolt, and let the PCs take out their own.

    2) Weak Mind: -2 wis on all builds. Their minds are incredibly fragile. this is on top of any other penalties. additional -2 on all will saves vs mind control.

    3) Crappy Healing: There's a chance that any healing spell cast on them will fail. Every time you get one, roll randomly: 1= fails, 2-4= quarter, 5+ regular half healing. Repair skills (seamstress/tailor) works. Repair spells... I guess so. Remember, tho, arcanes DON'T HAVE OTHER SKILLS, all they have are their spells. that's why, when they're out, they're hard to use.

    4) Stats: +2 phys, -4 mental: determine randomly at creation. any phys stat gets a bonus. The mental stats: roll 1d6 twice to determine. They could have int, wis, or cha penalties, or massivly reduced other stats.
    On top of this a regular -2 wis, due to their being CONSTRUCTS, NOT FULLY GROWN MINDS, as well as being especially mentally vulnerable.

    Those are my ideas. I like the class, and think that the above should make them LA0. LA isn't good for PC races. In fact, it's really really bad.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: They're like Warforged, but softer...

    OK, we had some new ideas over on the World Building boards, and I've made some revisions. What do you think?

    Fleshwrought Racial Traits
    • Abilities score modifications vary as shown below.
    • Medium: As Medium creatures, Fleshwrought have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
    • Fleshwrought base speed is 30 feet.
    • Living Construct: Fleshwrought have the benefits and penalties associated with the Living Construct subtype. However, Fleshwrought are not immune to poison, paralysis, fatigue, and exhaustion.
    • Electricity Resistance 15
    • Diseased Mind: Because of the ravages of the Weeping, a Fleshwrought’s mind is exceedingly confused and warped. This makes it difficult for spellcasters to affect Fleshwrought with mind-affecting magic, granting the Fleshwrought a +2 racial bonus to saves against Mind-Affecting spells and effects.
    • Electric Affinity: Due to the arcane processes surrounding its creation, a Fleshwrought reacts differently to electricity than other creatures. Additionally, when subject to an attack or effect that deals electricity damage, a Fleshwrought gains a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class as a result of the increased energy. This bonus does not apply if the Fleshwrought is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. This bonus lasts for 2d6 rounds.
    • Fleshwrought have a +2 racial bonus to Intimidate checks due to their grotesque appearance. However, they take a -4 penalty to any Charisma checks or Charisma-based skill checks with the exception of Intimidate checks.
    • Fleshwrought have a +10 racial bonus to Craft (surgery) checks made to replace parts of their body. Fleshwrought are created with a certain level of innate skill at this replacement, and they body actively tries to aid the process.
    • Body Part Replacement – Because Fleshwrought are composed of decay-prone parts of the bodies of deceased plague victims, they must occasionally replace parts of their body with newly-harvest limbs and organs. A Fleshwrought must replace at least one body part every 5 days or suffer from decreased physical prowess as their tissue decays. For every 5 days the Fleshwrought goes without replacement, it suffers a -2 penalty to its Strength and Dexterity scores.

      The replacement of a body part is a relatively delicate process, requiring 1 day to complete for every 5 days since last replacement. Body parts are replaced using the Craft (surgery) skill. The DC to replace a body part after 5 days is 15. This DC increases by 2 after 5 days, and again after every subsequent 5-day period, representing the increased damage to the Fleshwrought’s body from decay. For example, a Fleshwrought attempting to replace an arm 6 days after its last replacement would require 2 days and a successful DC 17 Craft (surgery) check to replace the arm.

      Fleshwrought can only use parts of plague victims or Plaguetouched for this replacement. Also, players do not need to specify which body part they are replacing, as it is assumed that the Fleshwrought prioritizes the process and rotates its replacements.
    • Favored Class: Fighter
    • Level Adjustment: +0


    Fleshwrought Ability Modifiers – Roll 1d6 to randomly determine the composition of the Fleshwrought.
    • +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma – Composed of assorted body parts, including the limbs of large, muscular humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition is strong, but has a scrambled mind and a subdued personality.
    • +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom – Composed largely of the bodies of heavy-set humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition can take a lot of physical punishment, but is not very alert or creative.
    • +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma – Composed of the limbs of slight, agile humanoids, a Fleshwrought of this composition is quick and nimble, but somewhat rash.


    OK, a few notes. First, I left the favored class as Fighter because that seems like a better catch-all than Barbarian, and Fleshwrought weren't created with the intent of using them in battle (at least, that's what I've gathered from people's comments). Second, I used Craft (surgery) because there was no other Craft subset that fit, and the Profession rules are more appropriate for determining amount of money made over time, not the success or failure of a specific attempt (although, a character with Profession (surgeon) or Profession (ridiculously creepy mad scientist) could have a decent business doing part replacement for Fleshwrought). Third, I'm keeping the living construct subtype despite having removed many of the features, merely because I think that any other type would be inappropriate for the flavor of the race. Really, this race blurs the lines between Undead and Constructs, but deciding on the specific flavor will hopefully solve that problem.

    So, to summarize, the Fleshwrought have electricity resistance, a bonus to saves against Mind-Affecting stuff, some skill bonuses, and some neat immunities. As a tradeoff, they have to replace their body parts relatively frequently or suffer serious penalties, they have net ability score penalties, and they suck at social interaction. I think that these balance out, making them OK as a LA +0 race. Hopefully people on the boards will agree.

    What do you think?

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