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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by roumani View Post
    I still think a stunted Prismatic dragon is the way to go.

    - May have been bred in darkness and shadow, explaining why it hasn't grown up, and actively wants light spells to hit it.
    - I think it probably hasn't really been trained much since it was captured young. So it doesn't necessarily know what it can do.
    - Yes it has a high Wisdom, but the stunting, youth, and possibly some other factors we do not know about could account for that.
    While I think a prismatic dragon would be a superb choice in many ways for MitD (details here) and I used to think there was no strong argument against it, I think there are two things taken together that really make it very unlikely:

    1. As Nerdanel pointed out here, to be able to use a 9th level Sorcerer spell, a Prismatic Dragon must be of an "Adult" age category or older to use a 9th level Sorcerer Spell. This is from the SRD here. This information was either not in the book I borrowed, or I missed it. If MitD is that old, it means that not only is he of Colossal size, but also it doesn't fit well with his apparent naivete. While we don't know the exact size MitD is, I think we can rule out Colossal.

    2. Even if we assume that his size is in some way stunted (Forbiddenwar mentioned here the "Dungeonbreed" template is a way to have creatures one size category smaller), it still means he would be of an age category of Adult, so it really feels wrong. Alternatively if it was stunted because it didn't have enough light, it could be smaller... but if we accept that it needs to be of an adult age category to cast Wish it still just doesn't feel right to me.


    Don't get me wrong, I'd love it to be a Prismatic Dragon. As I mentioned in this post, I think it would have some great artistic value. Plus the really big thing for me in favour of a Prismatic Dragon is that Dragons are iconic monsters in D&D (half the name) and so it would definitely be a type of creature that we would all recognise.

    Start of Darkness Spoiler:
    Spoiler
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    Of course as has been debated many times before, in S.O.D, the audience in the circus don't know what MitD is. Now if we assume he is a prismatic dragon, even if they are unfamiliar with prismatic dragons, you would expect pretty much every commoner to know what a dragon is. If I was DMing a 3.5 edition game, I'd probably assign a DC of 5 of something for the knowledge check on "recognise a dragon on sight as being some kind of dragon", like even someone with an intelligence penalty could achieve such recognition on taking 10. So if MitD was a prismatic dragon, you could reasonably expect the crowd's reaction to be "Oh, what kind of Dragon is that ?" rather than "What the hell is that" or similar. Of course, there's always artistic licence :-)


    I don't agree that MitD has a high wisdom. I think it might well have a high intelligence, but it's wisdom score in my opinion must be pretty low.

    Intelligence is the ability to learn academic, logical tasks. For example, learning "GO" would in my opinion be a task primarily determined by Intelligence, though some wisdom could play a part. Wisdom is about common sense, intuition, awareness of your surroundings. MitD consistently shows an incredible naivete and innocence that in my mind are incompatible with even an average Wisdom.

    I'm not an expert on the 3.5 rules but if I were to estimate MitD's INT and WIS, I'd say his WIS is no higher than 8, perhaps 10 at the absolute maximum. His INT could be anywhere from about 10 to 20, perhaps even higher.

    He seems to have a fairly high Charisma, being very sociable and chatty, though that is a debatable point. For me, it fits well with his "ESCAPE" ability from strip 661 being from a Sorcerer ability to cast 9th level spells, since I believe he has a fairly high Charisma. This fits the Prismatic Dragon, or the Dread Linnorm.

    If Mitd is a D&D monster, as has been said many times, we know he can't animate the dead with Cleric levels, (strip 299). Probably dosn't have Wizard levels either to be able to do this. That means the "Escape" he granted V and O-Chul is either some kind of innate ability, or if it's from Wish/Miracle, comes from Sorcerer levels (with thus a very limited spell selection) . True, it could be from something else (like a Dream Larva's Dreamscape ability), but to my mind Wish fits best.


    Quote Originally Posted by woodenbandman View Post
    Paragon Minotaur.
    EDIT: Have we pored over Dungeonscape yet? Rich did write that book. Maybe it's a Dungeonbred Somethingorother.
    As I mentioned earlier in this post, Forbiddenwar did suggest dungeon breed template as a way to make a monster smaller. I don't have access to that book, but could someone who does have a good look through it ?
    Last edited by lothos; 2009-08-05 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Added reply to woodenbandman's post
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  2. - Top - End - #782
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    If Xy messed with MitD's mind in order to make him eat Redcloak in case of betrayal, how do we know that he has not caused other changes to MitD. MitD's personality may be due to Xy making MitD think of himself as an easily controlled child. I think if MitD wasn't being mentally controlled in some way, he would have decided to walk into the sunlight by now, if only out of boredom.

  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Strawman View Post
    If Xy messed with MitD's mind in order to make him eat Redcloak in case of betrayal, how do we know that he has not caused other changes to MitD. MitD's personality may be due to Xy making MitD think of himself as an easily controlled child. I think if MitD wasn't being mentally controlled in some way, he would have decided to walk into the sunlight by now, if only out of boredom.
    SoD spoiler:

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    When the MitD is first captured by some explorers, he already has that same childlike personality. So he's been that way for much longer than he's known Xykon.
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  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: MITD hypothetical species?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdanel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddenwar View Post
    Stephen who? the person who wrote the fantasty epic the dark tower? he wrote other books you say?
    What is IT?
    For that matter what is a dream larva?
    Apparently It the horror novel by Stephen King (warning: spoilers) was the best-selling book in America in the year 1986. Stephen King has also written many more best-sellers in addition to the Dark Tower series.

    Dream Larva.
    I missed this before. Forbiddenwar have you seriously never heard of Stephen King??? (Other than Dark Tower.) For real???

    Carrie, Cujo, Shawshank Redemption, Green Mile, The Stand, The Shining, Firestarter, Pet Sematary, and a ton of others, almost all of which have been made into movies? Wow. I think this is the first time I've ever heard/read anyone say they didn't know who he was.
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  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Wait, is there an existing monster with all these powers?
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-08-06 at 12:04 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Itamarcu View Post
    Wait, is there an existing monster with all these powers?
    I think that's (part of) the 64,000gp question :-)

    The other part of the question is, does such a creature [with all the powers] have any characteristics or attributes which would disqualify it from being MitD.

    Answer both halves of that question, note that it's NOT a monster Rich made up (he said so, Kish has posted his exact words several times), then you might have answered the question pondered over the last 27 pages of this thread... and a lot of other threads too.

    What was the deal with the white on white text in your post ?
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    My new pet theory is grue. For those of you who have never played Zork:

    The Grue
    Last edited by satorian; 2009-08-06 at 09:17 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Oh! Does it count that the Hobgoblins of Xykon's army could understand what the MitD was, but not the people of SoD?

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by OdinsWatcher View Post
    Oh! Does it count that the Hobgoblins of Xykon's army could understand what the MitD was, but not the people of SoD?

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html
    The hunters in SoD did know what MitD is. And those goblins are too much in the funny place for their knowledge to count, IMO.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    I'm referring to the people at the circus From what I've heard, that's where he wasn't commonly known.
    Last edited by Watcher; 2009-08-06 at 09:43 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #791
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by OdinsWatcher View Post
    I'm referring to the ?people at the circus? From what I've heard, that's where he wasn't commonly known.
    The people at the circus were goblins...

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  12. - Top - End - #792
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Sure, ok. Whatever. It was just something I thought I'd point out to the speculators; it's not a bad thing to leave unflamed.

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    I've been thinking it could be some form of abomination, but I doubt that any of the specific, official abominations fit perfectly- otherwise someone would have found the one years ago, plus, the typical alignments don't seem to fit- I'm thinking more of something like an abomination.
    I know that it's an actual monster somewhere, not one Rich made up, but we don't know how specific that has to be- it could be that "abomination-like creature" or "rank 0 deity" or whatever is the actual type of monster, but the specific type was created by Rich.

    Is it possible that there's some creature that can vary a great deal, either individually (like, something that could have teleported O-Chul and V through sheer mental force rather than specifically being able to use Wish or whatever X times per day) or something that has set abilities but which varies from individual to individual?

    Because, really, I just think that somebody would have found the monster by now if it was as simple as finding something with all the abilities and traits of the MitD.
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Gah! And another thing: The Demon Roach with the MitD after the Azure City Battle told the MitD to stomp like he did when Xykon wouldn't buy him those Transformers, so the Roach knew it would happen, obviously, but if he had done it before (see also: like he did when...) the MitD should have known that he had the power to do so, unless he [MitD] was epically drained or something. So the Demon Roaches (evil outsiders) either are familiar with him or the MitD forgot he did it somehow.

    Or...they're just put in for comedy, but there are a lot of times they are used and involved in the plot (lighting Miko's lager bomb, heating Belkar's stew, convincing the MitD to do things, attracting attention to O-Chul before being impaled).

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    There has been much previous discussion on the CR of MitD (if he is a D&D Monster). A lot of people (myself included) have assumed he has a high CR. I tend to assume 20+. But I just noted something very specific in strip 191.
    Xykon says "There's nothing in there [his tower] any scarier than you. Correction, Any scarier than you SHOULD be".

    Now the tower turns out to be "sanctified by the forces of light" (strip 193) and the most powerful monster we get to see there is the silver dragon that Shelby beats (in the bonus comic in "No Cure for the Paladin Blues"), though the presence of the Silver Dragon is still shown on-line in strip 195 and thus Cannon, not to mention Xkyon EDIT, Correction, Redcloak later re-animates it.

    I can't see any evidence of how old the dragon is, but can anyone else spot something that might tell us ? Then we would know it's CR.

    [EDIT (much later)] - In Bonus Strip 194b, Redcloak specifically says it was an Ancient Silver Dragon. Bonus strips are apparently cannon anyway [/EDIT]

    If we assume in Xkyon's mind scary is approximately equal to CR then we might have a lower bound for MitD's CR. We know Xkyon thinks power is all that's really important (strip 657), so it's a reasonable assumption.
    Last edited by lothos; 2010-06-16 at 08:59 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #796
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Paladin Blues bonus strip (194b) Redcloak: "no, no, just a life-and-death struggle against an ancient silver dragon, that's all"

    And all strips are canon- events in bonus strips aren't "unofficial" or anything.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-08-07 at 11:35 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by lothos View Post
    There has been much previous discussion on the CR of MitD (if he is a D&D Monster). A lot of people (myself included) have assumed he has a high CR. I tend to assume 20+. But I just noted something very specific in strip 191.
    Xykon says "There's nothing in there [his tower] any scarier than you. Correction, Any scarier than you SHOULD be".
    Just to play Lawfully Aligned Fiend's advocate, it seems that at the point he told the MitD that, he didn't really know what was in there, only that there were likely to be a lot of monsters. You can go with higher then a Manticore or Umber Hulk, since he seems to think this will be worse then "that time".
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    Default Re: MITD hypothetical species?

    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    I missed this before. Forbiddenwar have you seriously never heard of Stephen King??? (Other than Dark Tower.) For real???

    Carrie, Cujo, Shawshank Redemption, Green Mile, The Stand, The Shining, Firestarter, Pet Sematary, and a ton of others, almost all of which have been made into movies? Wow. I think this is the first time I've ever heard/read anyone say they didn't know who he was.
    Ah, before my time. (I apologize in advance for making you feel old.) I didn't start reading him before he almost died in 2001(?) Part of my point though, was not everyone reads a specific author, besides the Giant, so saying we would recognize it because it came from such a such book doesn't work. I wouldn't recognize IT if it kissed me. As for the movies, most of them came out before I was born, the rest before I was allowed to see them (pg13 rating or higher) so I've never seen them.

    I realize now though that it is moot. Rich never said that everyone would recognize MitD. He said: it is possible to guess. he(personally) didn't just make it up. recognition isn't a factor.
    Last edited by Forbiddenwar; 2009-08-07 at 01:40 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    We do know that someone taught it manners, from the SoD segment in which he was caught.
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    To be a generally recognizable creature it should either be from a generally known mythology, or something of an iconic status within D&D.

    Without eliminating candidates based on other factors, that suggests something like a troll, hydra, titan, giant, minotaur, medusa, scylla, charybdis, balrog, elemental, dragon, pit fiend, beholder, or tarrasque.

    Can anyone suggest any famous monsters or genuinely iconic creatures?

    If you have to pull out anything but a plain old MM (of any edition) or pull it from generall known mythologies, I can promise you a lot of readers are going to go "huh" and the Giant's assertion about the identity will prove untrue.

    When we get down to brass tacks, the MitD might be template or variant of the monster. On that list, the only things that seem promising would be titan, balrog/pit fiend, and tarrasque.

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    ...
    Can anyone suggest any famous monsters or genuinely iconic creatures?

    If you have to pull out anything but a plain old MM (of any edition) or pull it from generall known mythologies, I can promise you a lot of readers are going to go "huh" and the Giant's assertion about the identity will prove untrue.

    When we get down to brass tacks, the MitD might be template or variant of the monster. On that list, the only things that seem promising would be titan, balrog/pit fiend, and tarrasque.
    I'm inclinde to agree, but none of the iconic D&D monsters fit. Titans are smart, pit fiends don't reproduce that way, and neither do tarrasques (tarrasques only reproduce in an obscure, outdated sourcebook).

    It could well be something that most people would recognize that somehow hasn't made it into a MM. Kish (IIRC) suggested a Jabberwock, which is exactly the sort of thing that could work here. There could be a mythological creature we're overlooking (I haven't crawled the Deities and Demigods yet).

    It's also possible that it's a somewhat obscure D&D critter that happened to catch Rich's eye. We know he added the MitD to the strip, then later (around strip 100) decided what it was, so it's competely possible that it's not "iconic", merely "fitting". I could see Rich spotting some monster in an obscure sourcebook and realizing that that was a perfect fit for the MitD.

    An "iconic" monster would most please the fans, but we're pretty sure none fit. An obscure monster would fit the actual details from the story better. A template-stacked oddity really doesn't seem to be Rich's style.

    I'm sticking with "Carnivorous Giant Space Hamster". But I think that when we understand why the MitD feels tired after using his special abilities, we'll know what it is.

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    To be a generally recognizable creature it should either be from a generally known mythology, or something of an iconic status within D&D.
    It's not necessarily iconic, or generally recognizable. Where's that Rich quote Kish keeps posting?

    Ah, found it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Burlew
    I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
    That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for this one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
    I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.
    Someone who is not Rich thought it up. That could include anything.

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    To be a generally recognizable creature it should either be from a generally known mythology, or something of an iconic status within D&D.
    I agree with Herald Alberich. Rich didn't say it would be recognisable, but that it could be guessed - i.e. it is something published publicly somewhere, and he specified not created by him. It could still be a strange stump-like creature from a 1st edition expansion book published 20 years ago exclusively in South Dakota and Idaho, and that would still count as "guessable".

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2009-08-07 at 06:43 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It could still be a strange stump-like creature...
    It's a pizza troll!
    Zoombinis reference.
    Last edited by Watcher; 2009-08-07 at 09:23 PM.

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    Default Re: MITD hypothetical species?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddenwar View Post
    Ah, before my time. (I apologize in advance for making you feel old.)
    You didn't. I was an infant when he Carrie was published.

    After 2001, you say? Hearts in Atlantis? Dreamcatcher? Secret Window? 1408? The Mist? (the movies were after 2001, anyway).

    I do realize that not everybody reads the same stuff. It just seemed kind of like if you'd said you'd never heard of Harry Potter.
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Burlew
    I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
    That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for this one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
    I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.
    The wording of the non bold quote leaves open the possibility of the MiTD's race having been invented by Rich but for a purpose other than OOTS and published somewhere already.

    The bold part implies that the MiTD's race is partly someone else's work and partly Rich's.

    All together, this quote would make most sense to me if the MiTD is an existing creature without a d20 version, and Rich had to convert it to d20 himself.

    My suggestion? A gingerbread golem!
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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Herald Alberich View Post
    It's not necessarily iconic, or generally recognizable.
    I agree. Recognition is not a factor. It could be a gebbeth or even a Haruchai.

    Actually a Haruchai sounds EXACTLY right. Powerwise, though not mental capability wise. A baby Haruchai?

    Oh, a whole bag of internets if you know what I'm talking about without wikipedia.
    Last edited by Forbiddenwar; 2009-08-08 at 02:45 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    I was reading the old strips and ran across something that I haven't seen brought up yet, and also blows the Prismatic Dragon theory out of the water. Something that is being completely overlooked for some reason...

    The Demon Roaches.

    Anyone ever wonder why they always seem to hang around the MitD? Where do they even come from? Well, in Strip #95 Redcloak explains that he was trying to get rid of the demon-roaches because Xykon's secret weapon keeps attracting them.

    It would make sense since they always seem to be hanging out near the MitD when they show up, that he is somehow responsible for their appearance. Maybe that will narrow it down for you speculators, or give you new ideas.

  29. - Top - End - #809
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Nice idea, but in SoD, we see them start hanging around Xykon and Redcloak, well before The Monster turns up.
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  30. - Top - End - #810
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Male

    Default Re: MitD - What We Know

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Nice idea, but in SoD, we see them start hanging around Xykon and Redcloak, well before The Monster turns up.
    Curses! Thwarted by my lack of the prelude material.

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