[3.5] Incorporeality question

[Baalzebub]

So I'm running this Bastion of Broken Souls campaign, and there's a part where my players encounter some "dream monsters". They are incorporeal, and their touch drains Wisdom. When I make an attack, a player tells me that the monster must roll d% because he is incorporeal.

We checked the books and well, we found this.

An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Nonmagical attacks made by an incorporeal creature with a melee weapon have no effect on corporeal targets, and any melee attack an incorporeal creature makes with a magic weapon against a corporeal target has a 50% miss chance, except for attacks it makes with a ghost touch weapon, while are made normally (no miss chance).

So, this means that the actual hands of the incorporeal shadow, spectre, and similar beings need to have the ghost touch ability in order to affect corporeal creatures? at least, that was something that I discussed heavily with my players.

Please help me on this guys.

[Ceaon]

An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Nonmagical attacks made by an incorporeal creature with a melee weapon have no effect on corporeal targets, and any melee attack an incorporeal creature makes with a magic weapon against a corporeal target has a 50% miss chance, except for attacks it makes with a ghost touch weapon, while are made normally (no miss chance).

I underlined the misunderstanding: natural weapons are not melee weapons.

[Duke of URL]

The line:

Nonmagical attacks made by an incorporeal creature with a melee weapon have no effect on corporeal targets

is not meant to include the creature's touch attacks.

[Baalzebub]

All right, I'm gonna spank my players for this...

Thanks for the assistance!!!

[Tsotha-lanti]

Where exactly did you get that bit? I'm unable to find matching text in the SRD with errata. Instead, I can find this:

INCORPOREALITY

Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can't be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature.

Incorporeal creatures are present on the same plane as the characters, and characters have some chance to affect them.

Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids.

Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source — except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.

Incorporeal creatures are immune to critical hits, extra damage from being favored enemies, and from sneak attacks. They move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground. They can pass through solid objects at will, although they cannot see when their eyes are within solid matter.

Incorporeal creatures hiding inside solid objects get a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen checks, because solid objects carry sound well. Pinpointing an opponent from inside a solid object uses the same rules as pinpointing invisible opponents (see Invisibility, below).

Incorporeal creatures are inaudible unless they decide to make noise.

The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability.

Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air.

Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage.

Corporeal creatures cannot trip or grapple incorporeal creatures.

Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

Incorporeal creatures do not leave footprints, have no scent, and make no noise unless they manifest, and even then they only make noise intentionally.

Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

Relevant sections bolded, no indication of needing to roll when attacking.

There's a lot of confusion around this issue, partly because of ghosts (who can be ethereal, or ethereal and incorporeal); although even ghosts don't work like the bit you quote (they just need ghost touch weapons to be able to make weapon attacks against material opponents).

I recommend checking DMG/MM errata.

[Baalzebub]

Where exactly did you get that bit? I'm unable to find matching text in the SRD with errata.

There's a lot of confusion around this issue, partly because of ghosts (who can be ethereal, or ethereal and incorporeal); although even ghosts don't work like the bit you quote (they just need ghost touch weapons to be able to make weapon attacks against material opponents).

I recommend checking DMG/MM errata.

D&D Glossary:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...subtype&alpha=

The book we checked for this was the Rules Compendium...

[Tsotha-lanti]

The passage you quoted is very weird.

It says "weapons." Okay, if we assume it really means weapons in the strict sense (which it should, since it uses the word), the other posters are correct that it doesn't affect non-weapon attacks.

However, it says "melee weapons" - so incorporeal creatures attacking with ranged weapons don't have a miss chance because of their incorporeality? How does that make any sense?

And how is an incorporeal creature going to lift a weapon? How many incorporeal creatures have a Str score? Ghosts can wield weapons (since they aren't incorporeal in the Ethereal, and have Str scores there, and they manifest themselves into the Material), but that's about it.

I'd just ignore the glossary bit and go with the quoted SRD sections. They seem to handle this issue just fine, and are more consistent and less bizarre...

[Baalzebub]

The passage you quoted is very weird.

It says "weapons." Okay, if we assume it really means weapons in the strict sense (which it should, since it uses the word), the other posters are correct that it doesn't affect non-weapon attacks.

However, it says "melee weapons" - so incorporeal creatures attacking with ranged weapons don't have a miss chance because of their incorporeality? How does that make any sense?

And how is an incorporeal creature going to lift a weapon? How many incorporeal creatures have a Str score? Ghosts can wield weapons (since they aren't incorporeal in the Ethereal, and have Str scores there, and they manifest themselves into the Material), but that's about it.

I'd just ignore the glossary bit and go with the quoted SRD sections. They seem to handle this issue just fine, and are more consistent and less bizarre...

Yeah, I was confused about that part too, I wasn't aware of it until one of my players mentioned that. I guess I will rule that "natural attacks" do not count as melee weapons, and therefore, my incorporeal being can attack with impunity, no miss chance. As it always has been!!

[Yuki Akuma]

Incorporeal touch attacks are really more incorporeal slam attacks - they don't target your touch AC, they target your normal AC minus armour and shields.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Yeah, I was confused about that part too, I wasn't aware of it until one of my players mentioned that. I guess I will rule that "natural attacks" do not count as melee weapons, and therefore, my incorporeal being can attack with impunity, no miss chance. As it always has been!!

"Weapons" and "natural attacks" are absolutely supposed to be distinct things. Magic weapon shouldn't work on natural attacks, and magic fang shouldn't work on swords. (Unarmed strikes are specifically treated as both, so both affect them.)

[Baalzebub]

So... that means that a Ghostly Monk can attack with its unnarmed strike without the miss chance?

[Tsotha-lanti]

So... that means that a Ghostly Monk can attack with its unnarmed strike without the miss chance?

Yeah, by a strict reading of the section you quote, anyway. I'd go with my quotes and interpret, forbidding it: no unarmed strikes for manifesting ghosts.

[hamishspence]

Planar Handbook's Vivacious Creature template- states clearly that natural attacks only work against ethereal foes (its incorporeal and has no Str)

I think the default is that a naturally incorporeal creature needs a special attack property to damage things with its natural attacks.

EDIT: Monks with Magic Strike should probably get that 50% miss chance though.

[Devils_Advocate]

The obvious point here to me isn't that incorporeal touch attacks aren't weapons (which seems dubious to me), but that they aren't nonmagical. Look at the wraith's Constitution Drain, the spectre's Energy Drain, the shadow's Strength Damage, and the allip's Wisdom Drain. They're all (Su), not (Ex).

[Baalzebub]

The obvious point here to me isn't that incorporeal touch attacks aren't weapons (which seems dubious to me), but that they aren't nonmagical. Look at the wraith's Constitution Drain, the spectre's Energy Drain, the shadow's Strength Damage, and the allip's Wisdom Drain. They're all (Su), not (Ex).

So they aren't really attacking? the text says: "nonmagical attacks with a melee weapon have no effect on corporeal targets"

[Devils_Advocate]

No, plainly they're attacking. I'm saying that their attacks are magical (because they're Supernatural abilities), not nonmagical.

[hamishspence]

And when a incorporeal template is applied to an animal, do the animals natural attacks not affect non-ethereal beings?

in the case of Vivacious, answer appears to be yes- a vivicious tiger on the material plane does no damage with its natural attacks to creatures on the material plane.

But is this a general rule for incorporeal creatures as a whole?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Baalzebub's quote (apparently more up-to-date than mine) is very explicit - melee weapons, not natural attacks (and not ranged attacks!).

I really can't think of incorporeal creatures with weapon attacks, though.

[Devils_Advocate]

Ah, I guess that only some natural attacks are natural weapons?

Bites, claws, slams, etc. are natural weapons and thus weapons, I'm pretty sure. But incorporeal touch attacks don't say that they're weapons, so I guess the default assumption is that they aren't weapons, just attacks.