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    Fitz10019's Avatar

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    Default About using 'turn' to Command non-Undead

    I am going to play a cleric soon, and I've never played one before. If you rebuke a creature, it obeys you. How long does that last? I can't find an expiration. Is it controlled forever? Is it free when the cleric sleeps? Is it free when he dies? Is it free when he's in negative hitpoints?

    Also, I can understand rebuking a mindless undead and ordering it around for the rest of your life (it's not like they have other plans), but some clerics rebuke non-mindless creatures. If an Elf cleric with the Plant domain rebukes a Needlefolk (Intelligence 6) to have personal valet, is that evil? Note: the MM2 says Needlefolk are 'always neutral' but act like total barstools towards elves. Rather, is that slavery? If it's slavery, doesn't that make it evil?

    Edit: thanks to Curmudgeon who pointed out that all my 'rebuke' references should have been 'command' references.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2009-06-10 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    I am going to play a cleric soon, and I've never played one before. If you rebuke a creature, it obeys you. How long does that last? I can't find an expiration. Is it controlled forever? Is it free when the cleric sleeps? Is it free when he dies? Is it free when he's in negative hitpoints?

    Also, I can understand rebuking a mindless undead and ordering it around for the rest of your life (it's not like they have other plans), but some clerics rebuke non-mindless creatures. If an Elf cleric with the Plant domain rebukes a Needlefolk (Intelligence 6) to have personal valet, is that evil? Note: the MM2 says Needlefolk are 'always neutral' but act like total barstools towards elves. Rather, is that slavery? If it's slavery, doesn't that make it evil?
    It lasts forever. And yes, turning something into your personal slave for all eternity seems a mite less than good to me, but to the game, Dominate, Programmed Amnesia, and similar spells aren't. In fact, there's even one that utterly rewrites someone's mind and personality to be on your side that's Good.
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
    Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    In fact, there's even one that utterly rewrites someone's mind and personality to be on your side that's Good.
    what one is that?

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Quote Originally Posted by Nohwl View Post
    what one is that?
    Book of Exalted Deeds. I don't recall the actual name, I avoid the book most of the time. May even be a Sanctified Spell, now that I think about it...
    [/sarcasm]
    FAQ is not RAW!
    Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
    Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    The name of the spell is Sanctify the Wicked.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    If an Elf cleric with the Plant domain rebukes a Needlefolk (Intelligence 6) to have personal valet, is that evil? Note: the MM2 says Needlefolk are 'always neutral' but act like total barstools towards elves. Rather, is that slavery? If it's slavery, doesn't that make it evil?
    Pretty much. So you'll want to stick to rebuking mindless critters (plants, undead) or critters that aren't generally considered 'slaves' (normal animals), or play a character whose alignment is flexible to the idea of whether or not using Earth or Fire to rebuke a Thoqqua into becoming your huckleberry counts as 'slavery' or just 'cool use of a class ability.'

    In core, you can Rebuke Undead (standard), Air creatures (Air Domain), Earth creatures (Earth Domain), Fire creatures (Fire Domain), Water creatures (Water Domain) and Plant creatures (Plant Domain). The elemental ones come with a lot of options outside of the Elementals, including some Dragons (who have elemental types) and various fun critters like Thoqqua.

    Scalykind is also OGL and allows one to rebuke reptilian animals (snake swarm!).

    Warforged from Eberron allows rebuking of Constructs. Cold or Winter (from Frostburn and other sources) allow rebuking of Cold creatures. Slime or Thirst (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting or Sandstorm) allow rebuking of slimes and oozes. Spiders allows rebuking of spiders (qu'elle surprise) and an Alternate Class Feature in Drow of the Underdark allows a Drow to rebuke Spiders as if several levels higher (1st level Drow Cleric with 2 spider swarms at her beck and call? We can do that!). There's even an option to rebuke *Dragons* in Dragon Magic, although they have some beefy Hit Dice, so you'll be waiting awhile to get one of those puppies!

    The Initiate of Nature feat (some Realms supplement) allows rebuking of animals.

    There's a *ton* of possibility inherent in a rebuke-build Cleric, but note that most PrCs (save for the Paragnostic Apostle) don't specifically allow for the increase of Cleric level for the purposes of Domain powers, so that Rebuke Plants power is going to start falling behind if you take levels in Radiant Servant of Pelor or Master of Shrouds or whatever.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    I debated the goodness of Sanctify the Wicked on these forums a couple of months back.

    BoED says that the birthplace of all souls is the Positive Energy Plane; therefore my POV is that Sanctify the Wicked isn't so much about brainwashing the enemy as it is a reset button, returning the soul to its initial nature. Add to that the sacrifices required of the caster, and the spell becomes much more reasonable in my opinion.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    So what's the guideline? With the Plant domain, I can rebuke any creature of the plant type. I should always order it to find the deepest part of the forest and resume it's normal life? When would keeping it as a servant be slavery/evil? Anything with a language? Some other standard?

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    See, I've seriously considered switching both the in-campaign perceptions and the mechanical attachments between Necromancy and Enchantment (Mind-Affecting) in the past.

    What's worse? The necromancer who animates skeletons to power a millstone or guard the King's tomb, or the enchanter who Charms his way into merchant's purses and women's beds? Making Charm and Dominate effects illegal - like, 'kill-user-on-sight' illegal, like animating the dead seems to be in a lot of fantasy kingdoms - makes more sense to me in a lot of ways, and more consistent with the actual effects of the spells in question if you leave aside what the user does with them. Even beneficial uses of Domination are pretty morally questionable in most cases.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Its consistant- Elminster, in Spellfire, goes into a long rant about the morality of "Person is Dangerous Therefore Person Must Be Destroyed"

    "It is the right and the doom of all creatures who walk Faerun to do as they will; it is why we of the Art frown so on those who charm often, or in frivolous cause."

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Reset to Positive doesn't rebuild to good, it just resets. So the idea is good, but i may not cover the full process.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Is killing Evil?

    The answer is clearly either "It depends" or a qualified "Yes" (depending on just what one takes "Evil" to mean).

    Same deal for the question "Is mind control Evil?"

    Same deal for countless other queries about whether a given sort of act is Evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    BoED says that the birthplace of all souls is the Positive Energy Plane; therefore my POV is that Sanctify the Wicked isn't so much about brainwashing the enemy as it is a reset button, returning the soul to its initial nature.
    Hitting a soul's reset button sure sounds like a form of brainwashing to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Hitting a soul's reset button takes away the choices they've already made. It's like using reincarnation as a justification for killing someone.

    It always bothered me that summoning feindish creatures into combat is an evil act. I prefer using evil creatures as cannonfodder.

    Anyway, back on topic. Do any of these factors justify a good-aligned character keeping a rebuked creature as a servant / bodyguard?

    possible 'servant/bodyguard' is ...
    1. evil and would cause trouble if free
    2. sublingual (intelligence 2 or lower)
    3. both

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Humans keep animals (INT 2<) as pets. Anything you control that has animal intelligence shouldn't be a problem.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Um, there's a big difference between mind-controlling a creature and keeping it as a pet. A pet you ideally befriend and are kind to. What we're talking about is more of a beast of burden. And forcing another being to labor on your behalf strikes me as generally Evil, no matter how dumb it is.

    Is enslaving severely retarded humans Evil? If so, then enslaving equally non-intelligent animals is also Evil for the same reasons, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    It always bothered me that summoning feindish creatures into combat is an evil act.
    Is it, actually? The spells have the [Evil] descriptor, but I don't think that means that casting them is Evil.

    1. evil and would cause trouble if free
    My opinion is that it's most compassionate to offer such a creature the choice between servitude, imprisonment, and death, rather than making the choice for it. But you can probably be Good-aligned without doing that.
    Last edited by Devils_Advocate; 2009-06-10 at 06:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    Is enslaving severely retarded humans Evil? If so, then enslaving equally non-intelligent animals is also Evil for the same reasons, right?
    I appreciate your handle, DA, but learning impaired humans are way above animal intelligence RAW, and let's stick to discussing the game.

    To that point, training an animal is not an evil act, even as a pack mule.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Quote Originally Posted by Hat-Trick View Post
    Humans keep animals (INT 2<) as pets. Anything you control that has animal intelligence shouldn't be a problem.
    Wiz/Sor familiars start at Int 6. Are they assumed to be volunteers?

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    Devil

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    The minimum human Int is 3 and the maximum animal Int is 2. How is that "way above"? It's above by the minimum amount that the coarse-grained system allows.

    Are you saying that there are no Int 2 humans in D&D, but if there were, then enslaving them wouldn't be Evil?
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    The minimum human Int is 3 and the maximum animal Int is 2. How is that "way above"? It's above by the minimum amount that the coarse-grained system allows.

    Are you saying that there are no Int 2 humans in D&D, but if there were, then enslaving them wouldn't be Evil?
    If you want to discuss impaired humans, please start another thread. That is a sensative topic for a lot of people, and it is explicitly not the topic of this thread. Please drop it.

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Yet another piece of evidence that the alignment system is lame. I'm going to extract it from my campaign.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    You do know that rebuking isn't what you want, right?
    A rebuked undead creature cowers as if in awe (attack rolls against the creature get a +2 bonus). The effect lasts 10 rounds.
    You want to be commanding these creatures, not just rebuking them.

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    You do know that rebuking isn't what you want, right? You want to be commanding these creatures, not just rebuking them.
    Ah, you are correct! Thanks for catching that!

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    Default Re: About Rebuking

    Plant Domain
    Granted Powers
    Rebuke or command plant creatures as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists...tm#plantDomain
    This wording implies a cleric with this domain can command plants [like an evil cleric commands undead] without being an evil cleric. Still, even if all the commands are non-evil, the enslavement could be flagged as evil. I still have to wonder how different this is from having an animal companion, or a familiar.

    Has anyone seen this become an issue in-game?

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    Default Re: About using 'turn' to Command non-Undead

    I think that animal companions and familiars are assumed to serve voluntarily.

    On the other hand, the elemental binding used to create golems (and many other things in Eberron) is plenty Evil. Unless you specifically bind Evil elementals, in which case you maybe break even by preventing them from harming others. Most elementals are Neutral, though...
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Default Re: About using 'turn' to Command non-Undead

    Actually not really evil by D&D. Since Neutral clerics can choose to channel positive or negative energy for turning/commanding undead.

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