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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    PEACH stands for Please ? And Comment Here...right?

    On to the prestige class.

    Aspect of Pun-Pun
    Long ago, there was a kobold wizard named Pun-Pun. By using some loopholes and several sourcebooks, he became mightier than any god. He retreated from reality, but still affects the Material Plane as wished.
    Some kobold scholars are aware of this entity, and ask him for aid. These are the Aspects of Pun-Pun.

    Requirements: Kobold, Knowledge (history) 10 ranks, Knowledge (any other) 5 ranks, able to cast 2nd-level spells.
    HD:d10
    Skills: 4+Int mod/level; all skills class skills.
    Good saves: Fort, Will
    BaB: Good
    Profciencies: None gained

    {table=head]Level|BaB|Fort/Ref/Will|Benifets|Spellcasting
    1|+1|+2/+0/+2|-|+1 level of previous spellcasting class
    2|+2|+3/+0/+3|Bonus feat|-
    3|+3|+3/+1/+3|Ability|-
    4|+4|+4/+1/+4|Ability score bonus|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    5|+5|+4/+1/+4|Bonus feat|-
    6|+6|+5/+2/+5|-|-
    7|+7|+5/+2/+5|Ability|-
    8|+8|+6/+2/+6|Bonus feat, Ability score bonus|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    9|+9|+6/+3/+6|-|-
    10|+10|+7/+3/+7|-|
    11|+11|+7/+3/+7|Bonus Feat, Ability|-
    12|+12|+8/+4/+8|Ability score bonus|+1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]

    Bonus feat: This can be any feat.

    Ability: This may be an ability from any class that is gained at a level equal to or lower than 1/2 your character level or 1/2 your ranks in you highest Knowledge skill, whichever is less, plus your Inteligence modifier.If it is from a prestige class, you must meet all requirements for that prestigge class. Alternativly, it can be an ability from a monster that has hit dice not exceeding 1/2 your character level or ranks in your highest Knowledge skill (whichever is less)+you Int modifier-10 (minimum 3). As a third option, you may gain a natural attack; see the table below. The ability must be approved by Pun-Pun, who is fine with anything that does not allow power like his (e.g, broken abilities like the Sarruk's (sp?) Manipulate Form).

    Aspect of Pun-Pun Natural Attacks
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    {table]Bite|1d4
    2 claws|1d3
    Gore|1d4
    Slam|1d4
    Sting|1d4
    2 tentacles|1d3
    4 tentacles|1d2[/table]


    Ability score bonus: Increase any ability score by 1.

    So, what do you think?
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2009-06-11 at 04:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly = PEACH

    One thing you should know about putting that PEACH tag in your title is that people are going to critique it, and while noone's likely to be mean about it, they are going to be honest.

    First off, I'd advise checking out the Guide to Homebrewing. It's an extremely useful guide and even shows you how to make those neat little tables.

    Now, I'm not sure how good of an idea this class is. If it's a joke-class sort of thing, it's probably fine, but since Pun-Pun is a build requiring huge amounts of meta-knowledge and general cheese...well, let's just say that I personally wouldn't want any player having a Prestige Class that makes the Pun-Pun build "real" in the world.

    That being said, the class is very bland. There are no class features at level 1, and the ability to pick any feat (do they need to meet all prerequisites?) as well as any class feature (even though it's restricted, the section is confusing and poorly worded) is just asking to be abused.

    Interestingly, the prerequisites have no mechanical basis in the class, by which I mean, why do you need 2nd-level spells if the class can't cast spells at all? Also, making the class a traditional 10-level PrC would help you to squeeze some of the class features together, eliminating some of those dead levels.

    But, yeah, hope this review doesn't come off as overly harsh (it wasn't meant to be), but I think the class could work...with a lot of effort.
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2009-06-11 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly = PEACH
    Thanks!

    One thing you should know about putting that PEACH tag in your title is that people are going to critique it, and while noone's likely to be mean about it, they are going to be honest.
    Obviously.

    First off, I'd advise checking out the Guide to Homebrewing. It's an extremely useful guide and even shows you how to make those neat little tables.
    Okay, I will. And why do you think I need help with the tables?

    Now, I'm not sure how good of an idea this class is. If it's a joke-class sort of thing, it's probably fine, but since Pun-Pun is a build requiring huge amounts of meta-knowledge and general cheese...well, let's just say that I personally wouldn't want any player having a Prestige Class that makes the Pun-Pun build "real" in the world.
    Flavor problems...But, if I was DM, I'd like the idea of, "If you become too powerful, Pun-Pun will kill you!" at least a little bit.

    That being said, the class is very bland. There are no class features at level 1, and the ability to pick any feat (do they need to meet all prerequisites?) as well as any class feature (even though it's restricted, the section is confusing and poorly worded) is just asking to be abused.
    The "no class features at level 1" is to help balence the class. d12 hit dice? 8+Int skill points? etc? Plus, the class feature mentioned includes a way to prevent overpoweredness.

    Interestingly, the prerequisites have no mechanical basis in the class, by which I mean, why do you need 2nd-level spells if the class can't cast spells at all?
    Fluff. Divine="worshiping" Pun-Pun, Arcane=following in Pun-Pun's footsteps (he was a wizard). Also, 2nd level (as opposed to, say, 1st level) is to help balence. If you can cast 2nd-level spells, you will probably think twice about losing several levels of spellcasting. I think that, without such "nerfs", the class becomes overpowered. When the flavor fits, all the better!
    Also, making the class a traditional 10-level PrC would help you to squeeze some of the class features together, eliminating some of those dead levels.
    The dead levels are because of three class features in a specific progression. If you have a suggestion of how to fill them that isn't overpowered, let me know.

    But, yeah, hope this review doesn't come off as overly harsh (it wasn't meant to be), but I think the class could work...with a lot of effort.
    Thanks for the PEACHing! Please be more specific if you want changes, though.
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2009-06-11 at 01:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Here's my two cents, with a table for extra helpfulness:

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special
    1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Bonus Feat
    2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Ability
    3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Bonus Feat
    4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|Ability Score Bonus
    5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Bonus Feat
    6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Ability
    7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|Bonus Feat
    8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|Ability Score Bonus
    9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Bonus Feat
    10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Ability[/table]

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    You do realize that this class is completely, utterly, and totally broken, right?

    "Okay, at Character Level 14, I pick up Violet Veil as my Ability. I already picked up the Rapid Abjuration from Abjurant Champion earlier, since it was just a first level ability. Now I can drop Violet Veils as Swift Actions. I win."

    Seriously, this class gets to cherry pick from the classes with the most broken abilities (those which are only five-level PrC's) easier. At 5th character level, I get my first ability (3 levels of Cleric + 2 of this class). I choose Divine Reach from the Heirophant class (a 1st level ability for that class). Now I get to apply Reach Spell for free to all divine casting.

    No. Just... no. Not as anything other than a complete joke.

    The only way to do this is to ban PrC's from being emulated. Even then, however, it's still broken depending on which sources you allow.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2009-06-11 at 01:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    Here's my two cents, with a table for extra helpfulness:

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special
    1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Bonus Feat
    2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Ability
    3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Bonus Feat
    4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|Ability Score Bonus
    5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Bonus Feat
    6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Ability
    7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|Bonus Feat
    8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|Ability Score Bonus
    9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Bonus Feat
    10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Ability[/table]
    Ahh...you meant a table with the saves/BaB on it!
    Nice varient, but I think it might be too powerful.

    Say, why doesn't someone try comparing it?


    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    You do realize that this class is completely, utterly, and totally broken, right?

    "Okay, at Character Level 14, I pick up Violet Veil as my Ability. I already picked up the Rapid Abjuration from Abjurant Champion earlier, since it was just a first level ability. Now I can drop Violet Veils as Swift Actions. I win."

    Seriously, this class gets to cherry pick from the classes with the most broken abilities (those which are only five-level PrC's) easier. At 5th character level, I get my first ability (3 levels of Cleric + 2 of this class). I choose Divine Reach from the Heirophant class (a 1st level ability for that class). Now I get to apply Reach Spell for free to all divine casting.

    No. Just... no. Not as anything other than a complete joke.

    The only way to do this is to ban PrC's from being emulated. Even then, however, it's still broken depending on which sources you allow.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    The ability must be approved by Pun-Pun, who is fine with anything that does not allow power like his (e.g, broken abilities like the Sarruk's (sp?) Manipulate Form).
    Notice the bolded parts. I built that in to avoid people making overpowered builds. (along with no class feature at 1st level and losing spellcasting).


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    Says the guy who invokes Pun-Pun.
    Touche.
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2009-06-11 at 01:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Nice varient, but I think it might be too powerful.
    Says the guy who invokes Pun-Pun.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Broken by virtue of being too open-ended. Saying that Pun-Pun will decide if you can have the ability or not doesn't help the DM decide at all. I think you should give a listing of specific abilities at each interval that the player could choose from. Example:

    Level 3: Sneak attack +1d6, rage 1/day, scent, 1d4 damage bite
    Level 7: Sneak attack +2d6, greater rage 1/day, fast healing 3, two 1d6 damage claws
    Level 11: Sneak attack +3d6, greater rage 3/day, pounce, three 1d4 damage tentacles

    Quick list, but you get the idea.

    If you're going to require casting spells to enter the class, you should probably advance spellcasting. If you worship Pun-Pun, you don't stop when you take the class. If you follow in his footsteps as a wizard, you don't stop your studies when you take the class. I don't think that the fluff fits at all.

    Not advancing spellcasting is like making a PrC require Power Attack, Cleave, and Leap Attack, and then not advancing BAB. You don't have to advance the spellcasting at every level, but if you have to nerf it that badly by requiring spellcasting and then not advancing it, your other class features are definitely unbalanced.

    Which, by the way, they are. I know Pun-Pun had great all-around saves and HD and skill points and everything, but you're making a class for a follower. If you took out all the class features as-is, it might be balanced. I think you'd probably prefer to tone down the other aspects?

    If you put {table=head] instead of just {table] at the start of the table, it turns your first row into a heading and looks better. Also good to bold that row.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    Broken by virtue of being too open-ended. Saying that Pun-Pun will decide if you can have the ability or not doesn't help the DM decide at all.
    Why? Broken=too good=Pun-Pun no likey.
    I think you should give a listing of specific abilities at each interval that the player could choose from. Example:

    Level 3: Sneak attack +1d6, rage 1/day, scent, 1d4 damage bite
    Level 7: Sneak attack +2d6, greater rage 1/day, fast healing 3, two 1d6 damage claws
    Level 11: Sneak attack +3d6, greater rage 3/day, pounce, three 1d4 damage tentacles

    Quick list, but you get the idea.
    Interesting idea, but too limiting in my opinion. It's like forcing a sorceror to know specific spells.

    If you're going to require casting spells to enter the class, you should probably advance spellcasting. If you worship Pun-Pun, you don't stop when you take the class. If you follow in his footsteps as a wizard, you don't stop your studies when you take the class. I don't think that the fluff fits at all.

    Not advancing spellcasting is like making a PrC require Power Attack, Cleave, and Leap Attack, and then not advancing BAB. You don't have to advance the spellcasting at every level, but if you have to nerf it that badly by requiring spellcasting and then not advancing it, your other class features are definitely unbalanced.

    Which, by the way, they are. I know Pun-Pun had great all-around saves and HD and skill points and everything, but you're making a class for a follower. If you took out all the class features as-is, it might be balanced. I think you'd probably prefer to tone down the other aspects?

    If you put {table=head] instead of just {table] at the start of the table, it turns your first row into a heading and looks better. Also good to bold that row.
    Thanks! Some ideas taken. Will post rest of table when I have time.

    In your example ("making a PrC require Power Attack, Cleave, and Leap Attack, and then not advancing BAB"), that is something I have never seen done.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    At 5th character level, I get my first ability (3 levels of Cleric + 2 of this class)...
    Whoawhoawhoa. Hold on. I missed this. How exactly do you plan to get 10 ranks in Knowledge (history) at level 3 cleric?



    Everyone assumes that this is overpowered. But who would disagree that the kobolds are weak?
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2009-06-11 at 06:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Why? Broken=too good=Pun-Pun no likey.
    Yes, but you need to define "broken". Otherwise this line is just a cop-out.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Interesting idea, but too limiting in my opinion. It's like forcing a sorceror to know specific spells.
    More like giving a sorcerer a spell list. Your way is like telling the sorcerer to invent his own spells, with no guidelines for doing so.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    Yes, but you need to define "broken". Otherwise this line is just a cop-out.
    This is true.

    Fax Celestis has a class, the Medium that gets this ability that may be sort of what you're looking for:

    Spiritual Emulation (Su): At 20th level, a medium can call upon the experiences of the slain and departed to grant him some of their abilities. As a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, she may spend power points equal to or less than her medium level, as well as expending her psionic focus. Upon doing this, she may temporarily gain one specific class feature from another class, of a maximum level up to one-half the power points spent on this ability. For instance, a medium that spent fourteen power points on this ability could gain a class feature from any other base class of up to seventh level. This is only for that one class ability, not the whole class feature progression. Continuing the example, the medium could select the Sneak Attack ability of a 7th level rogue, the Resist Nature's Lure ability of a 4th level druid, or the Bonus Feat gained by a 6th level fighter. In all instances where the class feature acquired mentions levels of the granting class, the medium can treat her medium levels as levels in that class for determining the strength of effects. She cannot gain spellcasting, manifesting, or a similar ability: these features require years of training and more power than the spirits she works with can provide. Further, she cannot gain any class feature that requires some sort of recharging (such as rest, restoration, or merely waiting). This temporary ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to the medium's Intelligence modifier. While a medium is using this ability, she cannot regain psychic focus.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    Yes, but you need to define "broken". Otherwise this line is just a cop-out.
    "Broken" means game-breaking. It's impossible to say, "Ability A is going to be broken in all campaigns." The only universally broken ability (Manipulate Form) is specifically mentioned in the entry. An ability that lets you deal +20d% damage on melee attacks would be great in a combat-heavy game, but in a diplomat-ey campaign it would be useless, and its use is limited in a campaign full of fast/flying monsters with ranged attacks that can just stay out of melee range (like, I don't know, DRAGONS). If you don't think you can tell what's broken, you shouldn't be DMing. And, if that's the case, you don't have to allow it. This is for a campaign with an experienced DM.


    More like giving a sorcerer a spell list. Your way is like telling the sorcerer to invent his own spells, with no guidelines for doing so.
    You don't get it. They can't make up new abilities. They have to use ones given. They have a couple abilities over the levels, which can be used on anything in the rulebooks. It's like a warlock with a very wide range of invocations to choose from.
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    You don't get it. They can't make up new abilities. They have to use ones given. They have a couple abilities over the levels, which can be used on anything in the rulebooks. It's like a warlock with a very wide range of invocations to choose from.
    *Poof*

    Nope. That would be a sorcerer who can take any spell in the rulebooks. Instead, he's limited to Arcane, and the Arcane spells that aren't Wizard specific (of which there are one or two).

    Besides, any class that's going to lead to arguments between the players and the DM, or that requires heavy thought to determine the complete ramifications of, should probably be revised to the point where this is no longer an issue. I know I'd only put that much work into allowing class where the class in question adds a great amount to a player's character...not one that appears to be strictly humorous in nature (Aspect of Pun-Pun? It currently sells itself as something not be allowed or taken seriously. I'd recommend a name change). Also, the formula for determining abilities is FAR to complex for a D&D formula, and the number of books needed for this class is staggering.

    Here's a list of some abilities which aren't broken, but are often to powerful, and would lead to Player/DM arguments (most players don't always bow down to rule 0 without some conflict).

    -Regeneration
    -Magic Immunity
    -Damage Reduction (why take Damage Reduction 5/magic if I can get, say, Damage Reduction 10/-)
    -Quickness
    -Cannibalize (from the Dusk Giant in MMIV) [Free hit dice? Sure!]

    I'm stopping there, but the list goes on...and on...and on. So I also recommend a new flavor for the class, and a list of selectable abilities. Personally, however, I see no reason to have this class when the Chameleon (do everything), Factotum (emulate everything) and Master of Many Forms (be everything) already exist. With those options already in place, this seems a class only for getting obscene power. Which, I understand, is not the point...but that's how it conveys itself to me.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2009-06-13 at 09:11 AM.

    Ingredients

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    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    1st of all, please don't use strange colors/fonts in all of the words in your posts. That makes things more complicated for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    *Poof*

    Nope. That would be a sorcerer who can take any spell in the rulebooks. Instead, he's limited to Arcane, and the Arcane spells that aren't Wizard specific (of which there are one or two).
    A sorceror with maybe a half-dozen spells, sure.

    ]Besides, any class that's going to lead to arguments between the players and the DM, or that requires heavy thought to determine the complete ramifications of, should probably be revised to the point where this is no longer an issue. I know I'd only put that much work into allowing class where the class in question adds a great amount to a player's character...not one that appears to be strictly humorous in nature (Aspect of Pun-Pun? It currently sells itself as something not be allowed or taken seriously. I'd recommend a name change). Also, the formula for determining abilities is FAR to complex for a D&D formula, and the number of books needed for this class is staggering.

    Here's a list of some abilities which aren't broken, but are often to powerful, and would lead to Player/DM arguments (most players don't always bow down to rule 0 without some conflict).

    -Regeneration
    -Magic Immunity
    -Damage Reduction (why take Damage Reduction 5/magic if I can get, say, Damage Reduction 10/-)
    -Quickness
    -Cannibalize (from the Dusk Giant in MMIV) [Free hit dice? Sure!]

    I'm stopping there, but the list goes on...and on...and on. So I also recommend a new flavor for the class, and a list of selectable abilities. Personally, however, I see no reason to have this class when the Chameleon (do everything), Factotum (emulate everything) and Master of Many Forms (be everything) already exist. With those options already in place, this seems a class only for getting obscene power. Which, I understand, is not the point...but that's how it conveys itself to me.
    A. How would you recomend flavor-changing?
    B. I'm trying to make a class with the potential for a small fraction of Pun-Pun's power; e.g. rules from flavor. Give a good flavor suggestion, and I'll be more specific on the abilities (it'd help if you gave me a list of suggestions).
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    What you're basically attempting to do is make a class who can alter reality as will - not in any specific manner, just alter reality, since that is the essence of the Punmaster - and yet keep it balanced.

    One of these does the trick already without a whole lot (in the cleric's case, without any) flavor alteration. And that's staying only in the free materials. Chameleon and Factotum and Incarnates can do a lot of the other stuff. None of them are weak, exactly, but mutual respect among the gaming group generally solves most problems of overpowered status anyway.

    Prestige Classes primarily exist to provide a mechanical solution to a wide concept that has poor mechanical implementation without the class, or to provide a very specific set of abilities for a very specific organization or discipline. Your class is, at current, neither.
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2009-06-13 at 03:00 PM.

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    GLARING FACTUAL ERROR: Kobold wasn't a wizard! Originally he was a friggin' Psion, of all things. Then, I believe a sorcerer but could be wrong.

    His latest incarnation is a first level paladin.


    Why it's broken: 3 level dip in this class (at the cost of 2 caster levels) in exchange for grabbing the capstone of some 10 level prestige class you qualify for. Then pick another prestige class with good class abilities to take instead.

    Why it's broken #2: Let's take, say, Incantrix. Take 10 levels of Incantrix. Then take its capstone again as a 2 level dip. I only said Incantrix as an example, but getting a class feature twice? You can get more than one sneak attack, so why can't you get "every metamagic feat is reduced" twice? Or "dex mod is added to melee damage" twice? Or whatever.


    Summary: Found the class boring, and its abilities poorly thought out. Come on, if you're going to make a tribute to Pun Pun make it Fun Fun.
    Last edited by TSED; 2009-06-13 at 03:02 PM.

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    Pun-Pun was a wizard at least one step of its evolution. I don't remember the order; I've always found him to be pretty boring, actually, as theoretical op goes.

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    i can't stand pun pun and anything related to him. but i am posting here to point something out:

    you asked for a critique, and as lappy said in the very beginning, people are going to give it to you. obviously you can take or leave their advice as you choose, but when every other poster on the thread says it is broken, and you are the only one that thinks it isn't, something is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSED View Post
    GLARING FACTUAL ERROR: Kobold wasn't a wizard! Originally he was a friggin' Psion, of all things. Then, I believe a sorcerer but could be wrong.

    His latest incarnation is a first level paladin.
    Pun-Pun is a wizard in the version I saw him in. I was unaware of the others. Mind if I see said paladin?


    Why it's broken: 3 level dip in this class (at the cost of 2 caster levels) in exchange for grabbing the capstone of some 10 level prestige class you qualify for. Then pick another prestige class with good class abilities to take instead.
    WHY DOES NO ONE REMEMBER THE LIMITATION?!?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Me, in the OP
    This may be an ability from any class that is gained at a level equal to or lower than 1/2 your character level or 1/2 your ranks in you highest Knowledge skill, whichever is less, plus your Inteligence modifier.
    If you are at least 20th level at the time, sure. If you are a wizard 7/Aspect of Pun-Pun 3 (the lowest level you can get the Ability class feature), you need an Int of 20 or more. Doable, but requires you to roll an 18 in Int at 1st level and to put both ability bonuses from level in Int.


    Why it's broken #2: Let's take, say, Incantrix. Take 10 levels of Incantrix. Then take its capstone again as a 2 level dip. I only said Incantrix as an example, but getting a class feature twice? You can get more than one sneak attack, so why can't you get "every metamagic feat is reduced" twice? Or "dex mod is added to melee damage" twice? Or whatever.
    Okay, that requires a near-epic build(Wizard 5*/Incantrix 10/Aspect of Pun-Pun 3), at least 17 ranks in a Knowledge skill**. (*Assuming a 5th-leve wizard can take Incantrix;**Not that important, but worth considering.)


    Summary: Found the class boring, and its abilities poorly thought out. Come on, if you're going to make a tribute to Pun Pun make it Fun Fun.
    First of all, nice pun-pun on Pun-Pun. Also, why is it boring? Poorly thought out, you explained. Boring? No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stycotl View Post
    you asked for a critique, and as lappy said in the very beginning, people are going to give it to you. obviously you can take or leave their advice as you choose, but when every other poster on the thread says it is broken, and you are the only one that thinks it isn't, something is wrong.

    aaron out.
    I feel this is a very, very important bit of critique that you have thus far failed to address.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Pun-Pun is a wizard in the version I saw him in. I was unaware of the others. Mind if I see said paladin?
    Max out Know (Religion), take Skill Focus (Know Religion) as your feat, get some other kobolds to Aid Another your know religion check while you use a library or etc. to get a +6 bonus to your +10 Know (Religion) check, say some fiend's name three times, he shows up and gives you a candle of three wishes, you begin making a couple wishes that end with you having the lovely broken ability, etc. etc.

    The paladin is important because the fiend loves corrupting paladins.


    WHY DOES NO ONE REMEMBER THE LIMITATION?!?!
    I did! Did you forget your own limitations?

    If you are at least 20th level at the time, sure. If you are a wizard 7/Aspect of Pun-Pun 3 (the lowest level you can get the Ability class feature), you need an Int of 20 or more. Doable, but requires you to roll an 18 in Int at 1st level and to put both ability bonuses from level in Int.
    Wrong!

    0) Some people use point buy. 18 is not hard to get with point buy.

    1) Qualify for the PrC. Not hard to do most of the time.

    2) 8 ranks in a knowledge skill. Doable by level 5.

    3) 22 int, which is EASY at level 9 (you can't really get in earlier than 7, as you mentioned, but you then have 2 levels to go) fuels you to get a class feature from a 10 level prestige class without increasing the skill ranks past 8. You may have forgotten that you get magic items, like, oh, "Headband of Intellect." Or a dragonwrought kobold who is also a Great Wyrm who has a lovely +3 to int.

    4) Enjoy a 10 level prestige class's capstone at ~lvl 10!

    5) Use the bonus feat from Aspect to help qualify for your next PrC.

    Disadvantage: Full spell level behind a 'straight' wizard.
    Advantage: Incantrix capstone.



    Okay, that requires a near-epic build(Wizard 5*/Incantrix 10/Aspect of Pun-Pun 3), at least 17 ranks in a Knowledge skill**. (*Assuming a 5th-leve wizard can take Incantrix;**Not that important, but worth considering.)
    Yes, because high level casters need all the help they can get.



    First of all, nice pun-pun on Pun-Pun. Also, why is it boring? Poorly thought out, you explained. Boring? No.
    Because it doesn't get any actual fun abilities. Worth taking, anyways. You're going to be throwing yourself at class abilities that you shouldn't have, followed by HD abilities you shouldn't have. It's got no personality-defining traits or ideas, just 'worship power', 'be a kobold', and 'take a few levels of this class.' Furthermore, it's only available to arcane casters so some of the classes that could actually have fun with this (let's use the paladin for an example, and then give him gore attacks!)

    In short, you're left with a 3 level long sludge in order to get an ability you really shouldn't have, then you drop out. A bonus feat is not exciting. +1 to a stat is not exciting. +1 caster level with d10 HD is not exciting. A class ability you shouldn't have IS exciting, but not because of this class. Because of another class. A caster-only prestige class with 12 levels with only +4 to caster level... No one's going to make it that far.

    Ever.


    In short: I suggest you make it open to all kobolds somehow, drop the 'any class feature EVAR!', make it useful but not gamebreaking for any kobold class, and make up your own awesome class abilities. Basically make a separate list of crazy weird and useful things that they can choose from every level, and maybe a class feature they can advance (ie: sneak attack AND bonus fighter feats [because kobold fighters are teh suq], spell casting progression, etc.).

    Then your spellcasting Pun Pun worshipper can still be a spellcaster but now has tentacle attacks and a gore attack, as well as permanent spiderclimb and can make 60' jumps. The kobold fighter has totally beefed up and a statue of ice follows him around all the time, then when it dies it reforms and goes back to following him. Also he has three arms and Powerful Build (while maintaining Slight Build somehow) and three-hands a Greatsword. Also he cries POISON. So on and so forth; make the kobolds totally bizarre aberration-esque vysages of metagamery.

    Actually, that sounds like a delightfully fun list to create.
    Last edited by TSED; 2009-06-15 at 06:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Ok, I just have to chime in here and say that to me, dropping the "any ability EVAR" part of this class would completely destroy the point. Also, I think that there is nothing wrong with the GM having to sit down and do some serious thinking when a particular PC levels up per se. The totally bizzare mix-and-match of abilities that have no thematic connection is very much key to the feel of this class, as is the fact that it has NO connection to the personality of the character taking it.

    That having been said, a rule about "No getting an ability at a character level more that 2 lower than you could otherwise have gotten it." MIGHT be good to keep the capstone grabbing under control...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Ok, I just have to chime in here and say that to me, dropping the "any ability EVAR" part of this class would completely destroy the point. Also, I think that there is nothing wrong with the GM having to sit down and do some serious thinking when a particular PC levels up per se. The totally bizzare mix-and-match of abilities that have no thematic connection is very much key to the feel of this class, as is the fact that it has NO connection to the personality of the character taking it.
    The amount of thinking a GM potentially has to do to get this class to work consistently is akin to making your own class. This thing is grossly underpowered in the hands of the unimaginative and grossly overpowered in the hands of the clever and persistent. That's about as broken as you can get.

    That having been said, a rule about "No getting an ability at a character level more that 2 lower than you could otherwise have gotten it." MIGHT be good to keep the capstone grabbing under control...
    How does one define ''could otherwise have gotten it?" Because if you go for minimum level as if you had built for the class, a lot of PrCs are easy to reach fast.

    If this is to be a real class, he will have to actually make up his own abilities and place them in a pool to be balanced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Ok, I just have to chime in here and say that to me, dropping the "any ability EVAR" part of this class would completely destroy the point. Also, I think that there is nothing wrong with the GM having to sit down and do some serious thinking when a particular PC levels up per se. The totally bizzare mix-and-match of abilities that have no thematic connection is very much key to the feel of this class, as is the fact that it has NO connection to the personality of the character taking it.

    That having been said, a rule about "No getting an ability at a character level more that 2 lower than you could otherwise have gotten it." MIGHT be good to keep the capstone grabbing under control...
    Possibly put it as the capstone instead? Any ability EVAR could be good times at epic or near-epic levels (when no one cares any more). Minimum level 7 to get in, 12 levels, so you're at 19 or higher to get the capstone.

    Not the best fix, but that feel is still there.

    The trick will be to make the other levels worth taking.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    You can't leave class features up to DM fiat, which is exactly what this class does. You have no rules spelled out for what can and cannot be taken. It needs to be explicitly stated what is "broken" and what is not. One person's broken is another person's balanced (see ToB; batman).

    Also, it's a 12-level class with 3 completely dead levels. Dead levels are bad.
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    And two of them are consecutive!


    This class would be an absolute crawl to get through.

    Pun Pun is not about crawling ever so slowly to get to class features the DM won't allow you have anyways.

    He's about REAL ULTIMATE POWER, NOW.


    Also, I think I'm going to make my Initiate of Pun Pun prestige class off of my ideas if you don't find a way to make this awesome. Because that really does seem like a fun class to make.
    Last edited by TSED; 2009-06-15 at 06:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    WHY DOES NO ONE REMEMBER THE LIMITATION?!?!
    Honestly, because it seems like a cop-out. I'm probably beating a Dead Horse with a +8 Vorpal Keen Greatsword, but you need to specify the "ability" thing better (I still think my earlier suggestion was perfectly valid) and to squash the class into 10 levels to make the progression flow better.

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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    FWIW there were more limitations than just "GM approval", and I suggested even more... the one thing that DOESN'T fit the class is any sort of finite list.
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Ok, I just have to chime in here and say that to me, dropping the "any ability EVAR" part of this class would completely destroy the point. Also, I think that there is nothing wrong with the GM having to sit down and do some serious thinking when a particular PC levels up per se. The totally bizzare mix-and-match of abilities that have no thematic connection is very much key to the feel of this class, as is the fact that it has NO connection to the personality of the character taking it.
    Agreed. On all points.


    Quote Originally Posted by lsfreak View Post
    You can't leave class features up to DM fiat, which is exactly what this class does.(A) You have no rules spelled out for what can and cannot be taken. It needs to be explicitly stated what is "broken" and what is not. One person's broken is another person's balanced(B) (see ToB; batman).

    Also, it's a 12-level class with 3 completely dead levels. Dead levels are bad.(C)
    A. That's true, but I don't think a DM unable to tell what's broken and what isn't should be using homebrew. B. ??? You answered yourself! I can't make a list of broken/not broken ablities! Fly at will is great, unless you are consistantly in tiny dungeon rooms! True Strike at will is probably broken, but maybe not if combat is a rarity! It varies. C. Dead levels are there because I think that, without some, the class will be too apealing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSED View Post
    Also, I think I'm going to make my Initiate of Pun Pun prestige class off of my ideas if you don't find a way to make this awesome. Because that really does seem like a fun class to make.
    Go ahead. Mind if I steal use some of your ideas?
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    Default Re: Aspect of Pun-Pun (PEACH)

    A DM unable to tell what's broken or not shouldn't be using homebrew, but the homebrew shouldn't require him to be doing all of the work, either. I can drive my car without my left side mirror, I've done it after some kid broke it with a rock, and if you're not able to you probably shouldn't be driving.

    The car should still have a left side mirror.

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