God with no clerics?

[Choco]

I was thinking of ideas to include in a homebrew setting I have been working on, and was wondering how to make this work:

I want to make one of the gods basically be the god of fighting/combat. He would probably be worshiped mostly by barbarians, and believes in using your own strength to overcome any challenges. However, due to this mindset, it would not make much sense for him to have any clerics, as he does not actively aid any of his followers (in combat anyway), and in general views ranged weapons and magic as the tactics of wimps.

So yeah, any ideas how I could make this work? Maybe instead of clerics, his "clerics" would be modified fighters/barbarians that get spell resistance and some kind of protection from arrows?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Conan: What gods do you pray to?
Subotai: I pray to the four winds... and you?
Conan: To Crom... but I seldom pray to him, he doesn't listen.
Subotai: [chuckles] What good is he then? Ah, it's just as I've always said.
Conan: He is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, "What is the riddle of steel?" If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me. That's Crom, strong on his mountain!

[paddyfool]

There are already quite a number of D&D gods who do not or cannot grant power to clerics. I see nothing wrong with this idea.

[Tiki Snakes]

Just don't have any clerics. Your Crom-type scorns their prayers for help. He's already given them the strength in their arms and the fire in their bellies. If they need more, then they don't deserve it.

any 'priests' of his would simply not be divine magic users. *shrug* I don't see any obvious problems with this. :)

[Choco]

Yup, Pharaoh's Fist, you guessed the inspiration

The problem is not coming up with reasons why he would have followers, but how to balance his followers against the other gods, who have clerics and magic

[Asheram]

I can't see how there should be any balance.
If the warriors of this god are weak, then they will die. Such is the way of life.

[Ent]

It's funny, I just watched Conan two days ago.

I think Krom did intervene sometimes, at the funeral pyre when the wind shouldn't have let the fire burn, and at the stone temple that is somehow engulfed in flame from a single brazier.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Religion is also a cultural phenomenon; the culture that worship the deity would have some sort of shamans, although they might not have divine magic and powers. Maybe make the priests bards instead; they have lore and social abilities, and access to arcane magic that includes effects like healing.

Conan: What gods do you pray to?
Subotai: I pray to the four winds... and you?
Conan: To Crom... but I seldom pray to him, he doesn't listen.
Subotai: [chuckles] What good is he then? Ah, it's just as I've always said.
Conan: He is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, "What is the riddle of steel?" If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me. That's Crom, strong on his mountain!

All R. E. Howard fans must make a DC 32 Fort save or vomit in horror.

[Tiki Snakes]

More specifically, think of it this way.

One Cimmerian wandering the world caused all that trouble. An entire nation of the same? Yeeeah. Pray to your gods, when a hundred barbarians smash down your city gates, you shall need their succor!

In other terms, the focus on strength, independance, etc, you're basically going to see such devout groups tend to be more likely to have class levels, be armed, and proficient. Less commoners. Any holy wars would be ferociously bloody, and those picking a fight with our Crom stand-in's people would soon regret it from the sheer vigor with which it is resisted, the violence that is returned.

They are fierce, strong people. His 'clergy' may not channel his divine might, but that's because they don't have to. They channel their OWN might, and come screaming into battle armed like the juggernauts of destruction that they are.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yup, Pharaoh's Fist, you guessed the inspiration

The problem is not coming up with reasons why he would have followers, but how to balance his followers against the other gods, who have clerics and magic

Raw manliness and tetosterone can overcome divine magic.

[Tsotha-lanti]

More specifically, think of it this way.

One Cimmerian wandering the world caused all that trouble. An entire nation of the same? Yeeeah. Pray to your gods, when a hundred barbarians smash down your city gates, you shall need their succor!

...

They are fierce, strong people. His 'clergy' may not channel his divine might, but that's because they don't have to. They channel their OWN might, and come screaming into battle armed like the juggernauts of destruction that they are.

The entire nation of Cimmerians pretty much just kept the Aquilonians out and raided across the border occasionally.

And no deities in the Hyborian Age granted magic, as far as is possible to tell. Many or most sorcerers claimed allegiance to deities (although pacts with Lovecraftian monsters from "beyond the gulfs of space" were more common), but they all used magic in essentially the same way; and only very few groups of priests were sorcerers (Set's Stygian priests, Asura's priests IIRC).

It's not exactly a comparable situation to your standard D&D setting.

[Coidzor]

Well, that depends on how many other religions he has gunning for him.

And what level of magic you have active in the world.

And if the nation of warriors, fighters, and barbarians manages to piss off any high level wizards

[Choco]

The entire nation of Cimmerians pretty much just kept the Aquilonians out and raided across the border occasionally.

And no deities in the Hyborian Age granted magic, as far as is possible to tell. Many or most sorcerers claimed allegiance to deities (although pacts with Lovecraftian monsters from "beyond the gulfs of space" were more common), but they all used magic in essentially the same way; and only very few groups of priests were sorcerers (Set's Stygian priests, Asura's priests IIRC).

It's not exactly a comparable situation to your standard D&D setting.

Exactly the problem I have.... Everyone on these boards knows that a single lvl 20 cleric/wizard/druid can wipe the floor with an entire army of lvl 20 barbarians if "played right". So short of modifying the magic system to not be so overpowered I would have to give the barbarians some sort of equalizer...

To clarify a bit: Those who truly worship this god are out fighting the best they can, not preaching. I thought about making priests (using Cloistered Cleric variant rules) be old/crippled warriors who can no longer fight, but then once the high level spells set in there would be no excuse for them not to magic themselves back up to strength and continue as they were. Also, I could see him interfering to "level the playing field" a bit, such as creating unfavorable circumstances for the enemies if they overly use range/magic to their advantage.

Yeah, some good suggestions in there so far, hopefully in a day or so with y'alls help I can get this figured out

Raw manliness and tetosterone can overcome divine magic

Yup, which was why I was thinking giving them spell resistance as monks have.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Horribly high will saves would be more useful than monk SR.

And it's not like Barbarians can't have Sorcerers and Druids. Infact, that would make a lot of sense.

[Choco]

Horribly high will saves would be more useful than monk SR.

And it's not like Barbarians can't have Sorcerers and Druids. Infact, that would make a lot of sense.

Normally it would make sense, but as stated above this god looks down on magic and even ranged weapons as the tools/tactics of cowards, and no true follower of his would dare take that big a blow to his manliness

Oh, and anther thing that MIGHT be important, magic is in fact responsible for the slowly coming demise of this world, almost like in Dark Sun, minus the need to defile/preserve.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

There's also multiclassing into Martial Adepts. Iron Heart Surge is good against spells, iirc.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Why would the barbarians need an equalizer? Most societies don't have 20th-level casters at their beck and call. NPC wizards of those levels tend to be solitary archmages, probably busy dimension-hopping or working on epic spells or something. Clerics of those levels tend to be at the direct beck and call of their deity.

There's nothing to really consider here. Not every culture needs clerics and such. Give them bards if you want a magic option. Adepts who use arcane magic, maybe. Both make good cultural priests, even though they don't use magic. If their religious leaders are also warleaders - which seems likely - make them barbarian/bards, maybe use the Skald PrC from Races of Faerûn or something.

[Tiki Snakes]

Also the Savage Bard perhaps? But yes, TOB seems a good source of additional non-barbarian-class barbarians.

[Asheram]

It'd say to increase the morale bonus to willsave while raging...
Give them endurance to elements..
Perhaps some bard ability with a battle hymn to their god. :P

[Choco]

Ah good point, there IS Tome of Battle after all, I think that is all the "equalizer" they would need...

And I am planning at least 1 war between this god and one who has clerics, so there will be high level clerics to contend with. I basically started this thread to think of logical ways that these guys would stand a chance of even surviving a war against an enemy that has high level spellcasters.

[Coidzor]

Well, what's the upper limit on NPC levels here?

How common are high leveled characters? mid-leveled? Near-Epics?

[Choco]

Well, what's the upper limit on NPC levels here?

How common are high leveled characters? mid-leveled? Near-Epics?

Since I want to avoid the mess that is Epic spellcasting, I capped player and NPC levels at 20. High level NPC's are not as rare as Eberron, but also not nearly as common as Faerun. Basically your military/religious and sometimes national leaders are at or close to lvl 20, as are the mandatory hermit Wizards and various other organization leaders. Each individual great nation would probably not have more than 5 NPC's of lvl 17-20, not all of them being casters, but even one is enough to be a royal pain.

[paddyfool]

You might find this discussion useful if you want to make your barbarian people truly different: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114367

Here are a few small potential game-levellers:

- A culturally specific prestige class that grants a short-ranged AMF to truly manly barbarians who are happy to forsake all kinds of magic (ranged weapons remain something of a problem, but are generally much less scary).

- Unique/more easy access to some kind of flying steed so that flying spellcasters aren't totally out of reach.

- Spellcasting allies (bit of a cop-out, but hey, Conan did it).

- Some kind of metal with anti-magic properties

- Deity sometimes intercedes to smite spellcasters or block their access to spells. He tends to watch battles with particularly interest, so more likely to intercede at those times. Possibly this intercession could be requested, but only by paramount chiefs etc.

[Hat-Trick]

The only thing you need to do is make it so anyone who worships this guy just doesn't worry about magic. The god frowns upon magic and ranged combat. He'd even the playing field with unmatched SR and horrible wind conditions. Maybe just Horrible Wind Conditions. The god of battle and storms.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Maybe a feat chain based on the Vow of feat chain from BoED, only not suck or broke?

So, things like this:

Vow of Nonmagic
Prerequsite: No magical spellcasting or innate magical abilities, including Su or Sp abilities; follower of <diety>; BAB 11+

You eschew magic in all forms, preferring the honesty of swords and strength. As a result, you automatically are considered to make a saving throw, if one is applicable. However, any spell cast on you, even Harmless ones, are automatically resisted, even beneficial ones.

Greater Vow of Nonmagic
Prerequsite: Vow of Nonmagic; BAB 16+

You have your very own personal anti-magic field, which covers you. Anyone you touch (either by making a melee attack or a touch attack, or a Grapple check) is also considered to be inside this anti-magic field as well. For a touch attack or melee attack, it is only considered to be inside the AMF until your next action, however if you grapple, they are considered to be inside the AMF until they somehow manage to get free.

One With The Elements
Prerequsite: Vow of Nonmagic; BAB +11

You gain resistance to elemental energies, by virtue of your manliness, and to keep weak wizards from being able to stand back and blast you with impunity with Orb Of spells. If you are affected by elemental damage that normally does not allow a saving throw, you get a Fortitude save for half damage. This will work with Mettle, if you have that ability.

[paddyfool]

The only thing you need to do is make it so anyone who worships this guy just doesn't worry about magic. The god frowns upon magic and ranged combat. He'd even the playing field with unmatched SR and horrible wind conditions. Maybe just Horrible Wind Conditions. The god of battle and storms.

This could work... perhaps, also, this deity subconsciously causes storms due to being rubbed the wrong way by spellcasting wherever it occurs; in such storms, lightning, hailstones and tornados tend to hit anyone casting spells and the general area around them. A mid-level or higher spellcaster could plan for it and shrug it off pretty easily, and it could easily be abused, but it would definitely discourage widespread casting.

[Choco]

This could work... perhaps, also, this deity subconsciously causes storms due to being rubbed the wrong way by spellcasting wherever it occurs; in such storms, lightning, hailstones and tornados tend to hit anyone casting spells and the general area around them. A mid-level or higher spellcaster could plan for it and shrug it off pretty easily, and it could easily be abused, but it would definitely discourage widespread casting.

Yeah, I have been leaning towards this on the grounds that it will take no mechanical changes to the game. Perhaps he will watch the battle for a while and give his warriors a chance to triumph over magic/bows on their own, as that is one of their greatest honors. If after a few minutes of fighting, or in the case of wizards who love to abuse walls of force or something equally devastating for melee fighters, it looks like his guys can't win the fight "fairly" against these "wimpy" tactics, he will interfere in some way. The interference would not be a guaranteed victory for the warriors, as that would be dishonorable, but would at least give them a chance. Perhaps walls of force would suddenly fail, casters would be struck by lightning/tornadoes, an earthquake, etc.

And in case the battle is against the followers of a rival god, chances are this dude would be able to overpower his opponent's intervention since he would likely have a larger power reserve due to not sharing it with his followers

Edit: Perhaps that could be one of the reasons he would interfere in the first place, to pick a fight with a rival god. Considering how much he loves fighting, he must be bored since ascending to divinity and not fighting nearly as often.

[MissK]

Exactly the problem I have.... Everyone on these boards knows that a single lvl 20 cleric/wizard/druid can wipe the floor with an entire army of lvl 20 barbarians if "played right". So short of modifying the magic system to not be so overpowered I would have to give the barbarians some sort of equalizer...

Three feats you might like from the Complete Arcane:
Mage Slayer -- +1 Will Save, If you threaten a caster, s/he cannot cast defensively

Pierce Magical Concealment -- disregard miss chance resulting from spells, including Darkness and Invisibility, when fighting someone with Mirror Image you know which one is real

Pierce Magical Protection -- ignore AC bonus provided by spells

The last one looks great to me. Just imagine the look on a wizard's face when he takes full damage from something as simple as a high-level sneak attack.

[Choco]

Three feats you might like from the Complete Arcane:
Mage Slayer -- +1 Will Save, If you threaten a caster, s/he cannot cast defensively

Pierce Magical Concealment -- disregard miss chance resulting from spells, including Darkness and Invisibility, when fighting someone with Mirror Image you know which one is real

Pierce Magical Protection -- ignore AC bonus provided by spells

The last one looks great to me. Just imagine the look on a wizard's face when he takes full damage from something as simple as a high-level sneak attack.

Those are nice!

Now all I really need is a way to get around forcecage/wall of force... maybe the more powerful of the lot would be equipped with items that can generate AMF's.

[woodenbandman]

Psychic Warriors? Ardents?

The Physical Power and Conflict mantles are thematically appropriate. They use their sheer volume of testosterone welling up inside them to perform feats of epic strength! I personally like Psychic Warrior power list, but i find the lack of power points disturbing. Earth Power, ToPP, and perhaps Midnight Augmentation are all necessary.