Pathfinder's Latest Preview: Cleric

[DeathQuaker]

I know not everyone here is interested in Pathfinder, so if you don't like it, that's fine. You don't have to read this.

For those of you who are interested, they've put up a preview of their iconic cleric (the latest in a line of previews), created with the FINAL, not beta rules here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lacj

Summary of changes and my thoughts on them:

- Change to Domains -- they've gone back to a "special ability + gain spells every level" paradigm. While this eliminates the more unique nature of BETA's domains with various Su and Sp abilities (making domains feel more like innate powers), this brings back way more backwards compatibility and is simpler to track. It looks like your special ability may improve as you get higher in level, which is a good thing--I like innate abilities that improve as you get more powerful.

- Channel Energy tweaked so it either damages undead OR heals living creatures in a radius (I think this was to make the ability less abusable). A Turn Undead feat allows you to spend a Channel Energy attempt to scare undead away.

- Casting on the Defensive notably changed -- it is now a "concentration" (in name only) check at 1d20+Caster Level+Spellcasting Ability Modifier (so for Clerics, 1d20+CL+Wis Bonus), at a DC of 15 + DOUBLE the spell's level. They have intentionally made casting on the defensive more difficult to do, with the intention of making some spellcasting tricks less abusable.

This particular change seems controversial (if you read the thread in their message boards on it), but I personally like it. It reminds me of 2nd Ed AD&D where if someone was able to attack you while you were in the middle of casting, your spell fizzled, forcing spellcasters to stay out of combat range (and thus helping give meleers their own place to shine). There were problems with this idea, but it did certainly help curtail the absolute power casters tend to have at high levels. The original AOO-while-casting-in-reach was meant to reflect/continue this concept, but it was always waaaay too easy to overcome. This makes casting in combat way more difficult, but still gives you a chance to defend yourself.

And at least it still takes Constitution out of the equation.

- Some spell changes: Death Ward is now a bonus to saves, not blanket protection; Divine Power still gives notable melee boosts but doesn't instantly make a cleric exceed a fighter's capabilities with one spell). Remove Curse requires a Caster Level check to succeed (not sure if I like this).

Any thoughts? If you don't like the changes, how would you have done it instead?

[Doc Roc]

Any indication of the current state of polymorph?

[DeathQuaker]

Any indication of the current state of polymorph?

They wouldn't have that in the cleric preview, and it's not covered in the Sorcerer preview (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5labs).

They haven't previewed the Wizard yet, which I imagine if they are going to talk about it before release, it will be then. Or possibly when/if they preview the Druid.

Otherwise, as far as I know, until proven otherwise, it's still broken down into the various other shapeshifting spells (Form of the Dragon, etc.). My guess is that they'll probably keep it like that, though they may tweak the actual gains you get from the spell.

[Matthew]

Sounds interesting; I am glad that they have addressed the concentration check rule, though I still personally prefer the AD&D implementation. Also happy to see they have taken a look at Divine Power, though it is not clear to me yet whether it has been toned down sufficiently.

[imperialspectre]

It's been toned down to the point of near-uselessness, if you have the ability to make round/level spells last at all. If you don't, you're still better off buffing and destroying enemies like a real caster.

We'd already houseruled the domain system back to the 3.5 version (without bonus spell slots) in my Pathfinder/Tome hybrid, so it's kind of nice that they're figuring these things out.

Not sure about the defensive casting change, as it seems likely to hurt the divine casters (who have already been dramatically nerfed, if perhaps not enough) much more than it hurts arcane casters (who got, if anything, a power increase compared to 3.5).

Compared to the horrifying pile of failure that was the iconic fighter and ranger, the cleric is certainly doing okay.

[Starbuck_II]

- Casting on the Defensive notably changed -- it is now a "concentration" (in name only) check at 1d20+Caster Level+Spellcasting Ability Modifier (so for Clerics, 1d20+CL+Wis Bonus), at a DC of 15 + DOUBLE the spell's level. They have intentionally made casting on the defensive more difficult to do, with the intention of making some spellcasting tricks less abusable.

So we are back to 5 foot step away then cast.
Defensive casting was always a last resort.

- Some spell changes: Death Ward is now a bonus to saves, not blanket protection.

So it has no benefit to Enervation and spells /effects that have no save like Energy Drain (Vampires). Death Ward becomes useless for protection.

It is now a flu vaccine instead of a preventive cure.

[Fixer]

So it has no benefit to Enervation and spells /effects that have no save like Energy Drain (Vampires). Death Ward becomes useless for protection.

If you go read the article, it also specifies it grants a save for such spells that normally do not allow one.

[Starbuck_II]

If you go read the article, it also specifies it grants a save for such spells that normally do not allow one.

Missed that sentence while reading it. Also lets you suppresses negative level penalties while active (still need restoration after spell duration).

So that is pretty nice though still weaker.

[Epinephrine]

So we are back to 5 foot step away then cast.
Defensive casting was always a last resort.

They now have feats that allow enemies to follow you when you do this. Could make a big difference.

[lesser_minion]

Missed that sentence while reading it. Also lets you suppresses negative level penalties while active (still need restoration after spell duration).

So that is pretty nice though still weaker.

It's a good idea though.

As long as the benefits of the spell are a guaranteed better-than-even chance of surviving those spells, it's doing its job.

Death Ward is one of those spells in the same boat as things like Delay Poison, Paladin Immunity to Fear, Venom Immunity and the like.

Unneccessary absolutes do much more harm than good.