What do you do with your Extradimensional Spaces while in a Rope Trick?

[Josh the Aspie]

Hey there.

Due to the vast preponderance of people advising arcane casters to use rope trick to rest, and the vast number of people saying any low strength wizard (and many other character types) should have an extra dimensional space for carrying their gear... what do those of you with both do, to avoid taking your extra dimensional spaces into another extra dimensional space, and still keep them safe?

[TheCountAlucard]

For the bags of holding, just go ahead and bring 'em in with you. It says in rope trick that it's hazardous to bring extradimensional things into it, whereas bags of holding are nondimensional.

[Josh the Aspie]

Hmmmm. As do Portable Holes. Intriguing.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Strength check required to even try to bring them together, Wisdom check required to stabilize them while coming in.

[ChaosDefender24]

usually the DM doesn't want to be a jerk about it, so nothing :D

[Quietus]

I don't, because I feel that the idea of a group huddling inside the small space in a Rope Trick is a little too... metagamey.. for my liking. I like to be comfortable, thank you.

And if any of my players ever tried this sort of thing to avoid a high-levelled Wizard, they'd wake up to find the exit of their Rope Trick changed. It now opens to the inside of a portable hole, which is closed, and thus they can't get out of it. If, of course, they'd actively pissed off said Wizard.

[averagejoe]

Hmmmm. As do Portable Holes. Intriguing.

More specifically, it's alright to take one, but it's hazardous to open a portable hole in a rope trick.

A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.

The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.

[Alleine]

I don't, because I feel that the idea of a group huddling inside the small space in a Rope Trick is a little too... metagamey.. for my liking. I like to be comfortable, thank you.

And if any of my players ever tried this sort of thing to avoid a high-levelled Wizard, they'd wake up to find the exit of their Rope Trick changed. It now opens to the inside of a portable hole, which is closed, and thus they can't get out of it. If, of course, they'd actively pissed off said Wizard.

No one said rope tricks were small. You can fit 8 people in there you know, and if the party consists of 8 people then you might have more to worry about, like DMing for 8 people.

Rope trick is only viable at low to mid levels. If you face a high level wizard who knows that they have a tendency to rope trick out of nasty situations, just give him the metamagic feat transdimensional spell. Or have him use any spell that already works across planes. Or just set up a trap for when the rope trick ends.

@OP: Unless your DM likes to mess with you, nothing should happen. I've heard that that bit of text in the spell description is mostly a hold over from older editions where spells were equally dangerous to the caster and had many ways of backfiring. As The CountAlucard said, they aren't even extra dimensional, so there shouldn't be a problem.

[Quietus]

No one said rope tricks were small. You can fit 8 people in there you know, and if the party consists of 8 people then you might have more to worry about, like DMing for 8 people.

Rope trick is only viable at low to mid levels. If you face a high level wizard who knows that they have a tendency to rope trick out of nasty situations, just give him the metamagic feat transdimensional spell. Or have him use any spell that already works across planes. Or just set up a trap for when the rope trick ends.

@OP: Unless your DM likes to mess with you, nothing should happen. I've heard that that bit of text in the spell description is mostly a hold over from older editions where spells were equally dangerous to the caster and had many ways of backfiring. As The CountAlucard said, they aren't even extra dimensional, so there shouldn't be a problem.

This is what that portable hole would be. The information on one says nothing about being able to open it *from the inside*, and if someone wants to play a Batman wizard in my generally non-optimizing group and handle everything on his own, I'm going to punish them for it.

[Josh the Aspie]

Yaknow, after thinking it over, non-dimensional and extra-dimensional spaces are just two different ways of saying the same thing, even though the term should probably be non-planar, and extra-planar.

[Curmudgeon]

The Portable Hole is both nondimensional and extradimensional. Just don't open it up inside your Rope Trick, and the issue won't arise.

[Josh the Aspie]

Okay, if you are insisting that these two things are different, what is the difference?

[Flickerdart]

Okay, if you are insisting that these two things are different, what is the difference?

Extradimensional refers to a space outside the four dimensions. It's like opening a depth hole on a 2D plane, but in 3D (and time).
Nondimensional isn't an added dimension: it takes up no dimensionality at all, and does not link with dimensional things. Accessing a nondimensional space requires an extradimensional portal, but as long as it remains closed, it's not actually in contact with dimensions, or related to them. This is like having Giant Frog in a 2D space. Giant Frog has nothing to do with 2D space at all. Giant Frog just is.

[Baron Malkar]

Giant Frog has nothing to do with 2D space at all. Giant Frog just is.

Can I SIG that?

[Flickerdart]

Sure, go ahead.

[Josh the Aspie]

Ah. So you take the prefix "extra" to mean "additional".

By my reading, the pre-fixes extra, and non, both mean outside of, or without relation too.

This seems to be supported by the following.

(snip)
When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being.
(snip)
Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space.
(snip)

The way I read this, the portal accesses it's own extra/non-dimensional space any time it is activated, by laying it flat across a surface, and that the two terms refer to the exact same thing.

Given the fact that putting a closed bag of holding in a portable hole, or visa-versa, has very negative effects, that indicates that such an object does not have to be 'locked in the open position' for the effects of carrying such a portal across another such portal to be a very bad thing.

In 2nd ed, this was pretty much a standard rule. You bring a pocket-space into another pocket-space, and bad stuff (tm) happens. In this case, I'm not sure if it's listed anywhere, but these 3 pocket-spaces all make references to this tradition of 'bad stuff happens'.

As I understand it, this originated when some of Gary Gygax's players started trying to -further- optimize their carrying capacity by putting bags of holding inside bags of holding to make their carrying capacity only limited by their gold.

[Curmudgeon]

Given the fact that putting a closed bag of holding in a portable hole, or visa-versa, has very negative effects, that indicates that such an object does not have to be 'locked in the open position' for the effects of carrying such a portal across another such portal to be a very bad thing.

You're making up things that aren't stated in the 3.5 rules.

If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

The RAW limits the effects to those two specific items, and only with respect to each other. There's absolutely no mention of interaction with a Rope Trick, for instance.

[Josh the Aspie]

First of all, no, I'm not making something up. I am making reference to a few specific facts, and attempting to discuss an alternate interpretation of the english language meaning of the rules as written from the one you use.

As your above quote above just showed, placing a bag of holding into a portable hole, or visa versa, does not require either to be open for their effect to occur.

As for there not being a mention of interaction with a rope trick...

Rope Trick
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
Material Component

Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.

Emphasis mine. According to the above note, it is hazardous to bring an extra-dimensional space into the rope trick. It does not define what that hazard is, and so it is up to the DM to decide what that hazard is. The most similar examples in D&D are the example of the intersection of a portable hole, and a bag of holding. In each case the item, which provides the portal to said space, is inserted into the opening provided by the other. No exception is made for if the item is closed.

Given these facts, it seems sensible to me that the hazard of bringing a portable hole or a bag of holding into a rope trick is very similar to the hazard posed by placing one inside the other. Said hazard does not make an exception for one of those items being closed.

D&D tradition, going back to 2nd ed (and perhaps further back) seems to support this, if that means anything to you. For some people, it will not matter.

Please note that I am not saying that this is the only interpretation, or that you would be wrong to rule the way you are describing things.

[Saph]

The rules aren't entirely specific, so it's a DM call.

Usually I find that if you're high enough level to be relying on Bags of Holding and suchlike, you're high enough level to spring for a Secure Shelter instead of a Rope Trick. More stylish, and much more comfortable. Plus you can decorate it to taste.

- Saph

[Flickerdart]

I would very much like to see you put a Bag of Holding inside a Portable Hole when both items are closed.

[herrhauptmann]

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

I'm going to second the argument that this is a holdover from older rules. Just like elves immune to sleep or a wights paralyzing touch.

While the spell description says it is dangerous to bring an extradimensional space (and if you want to argue extra vs non-dimensional, I want to argue string theory). Nowhere in any 3.0/3.5 book I've seen does it list an actual penalty except for Portable hole + Bag of holding.
If your DM, or you as the DM decide otherwise, it's a houserule, and one you should warn your party about immediately. Further, you should make up the effects NOW, rather than the first time it comes up, otherwise you end up with something that has no effect, or you're screwing the party over because you made something up at the last second.

[Josh the Aspie]

I would very much like to see you put a Bag of Holding inside a Portable Hole when both items are closed.

"And one of them is not a quarter"

Allow me to clarify. If the bag of holding, closed, is placed in the portable hole, open, and activated, bad stuff happens. If a portable hole, closed, is placed in a bag of holding, open, bad stuff happens.

If an extradimensional space, closed, is brought into a rope trick, open, bad stuff happens.

[Josh the Aspie]

While the spell description says it is dangerous to bring an extradimensional space. Nowhere in any 3.0/3.5 book I've seen does it list an actual penalty except for Portable hole + Bag of holding.
If your DM, or you as the DM decide otherwise, it's a houserule, and one you should warn your party about immediately. Further, you should make up the effects NOW, rather than the first time it comes up, otherwise you end up with something that has no effect, or you're screwing the party over because you made something up at the last second.

Rope Trick
Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

I have redacted the above slightly. Altered scripts for below are for emphasis, not to be condescending in any way.

There is a penalty. It is just a vague and unspecified one of a 'hazard'.

Ruling that there is no hazard, or ignoring that line is as much a house rule as declaring what that hazard is, but declaring that there is a hazard is not a house rule.

Personally, I'm looking at just using the astral-rip and dump effect from placing the bag of holding into the portable hole.

This means it is not instantly deadly, but that you have placed yourself in grave danger, due to the sometimes inhospitable nature of the astral plane, and the likelihood that you are not prepared.

[Josh the Aspie]

The rules aren't entirely specific, so it's a DM call.

Usually I find that if you're high enough level to be relying on Bags of Holding and suchlike, you're high enough level to spring for a Secure Shelter instead of a Rope Trick. More stylish, and much more comfortable. Plus you can decorate it to taste.

- Saph

Ah. Definitely a good idea for secure sleeping, although there might not be room if you intend to rest in the middle of a dungeon.

Any other good resting suggestions?

Do you ever see rope trick used in the campaign?

[Saph]

We usually found that Rope Trick wasn't much use for resting, as it only lasts 1 hour/level. To rest and prepare spells takes 9 hours, which requires CL 9, and by the time you're level 9 you've got secure shelter, not to mention teleport.

Instead I tended to use Rope Trick as an 'emergency escape' for when things went really, really badly, such as during our first attempt at dragon-slaying. The white dragon in question turned out to be considerably tougher than the party, and the fact that only 3 players were there didn't help. One PC got killed, a second PC got killed, and my wizard was left on her own facing an undamaged and extremely angry dragon.

I used a flight spell and ran. Dragon followed. I flew out into the blizzard and then down the side of the temple. Dragon kept following, taking potshots at me along the way. I managed to give it the slip very briefly, ducked around a corner, cast Rope Trick, climbed inside, and pulled up the rope.

Six seconds later a very angry white dragon stormed past. It could smell me, so it knew I'd passed that spot, but it didn't have enough Spellcraft ranks to know about Rope Trick, so it couldn't figure out where I'd gone. So it started searching the entire area, inch by inch, while I watched from ten feet up, hoping the dragon would give up before the Rope Trick's duration did.

Definitely one of the more exciting sessions I've played. :)

- Saph

[Josh the Aspie]

VERY interesting character session story.

Did the dragon give up first? Did you get the other PCs back?

[Eldariel]

Do you ever see rope trick used in the campaign?

We used Extended Rope Tricks from the moment we hit level 5 in our last "standard" campaign (that is, not LMG, not epic, not deity, etc. - basic 3.5 D&D) It worked just fine, although the Wizard was leery of spending one of his highest level slots on it at first.

He got over it soon enough though as he realized that he actually got a chance to rest for his spells (we tend to run into lots of stuff overnight; one time we had to spend few weeks recovering from a Colossal Spider's bites in High Forest and every night some random crap happened; the only reason we came out of it alive were few very successful Diplomacy- and Bluff-checks - no, we didn't have access to Restoration that game, or Cleric-spells in general).

[Saph]

VERY interesting character session story.

Did the dragon give up first? Did you get the other PCs back?

No . . . well, kind of. Long story. :) I wrote it up in a campaign diary here, if you're curious. I think the dragon encounter was on page 2.

- Saph

[Sstoopidtallkid]

We usually found that Rope Trick wasn't much use for resting, as it only lasts 1 hour/level. To rest and prepare spells takes 9 hours, which requires CL 9, and by the time you're level 9 you've got secure shelter, not to mention teleport.

Much higher-level spells, and not as effective. Teleport requires 2 castings at 5th level, and might not take the whole party. Leomunds Secure Shelter is not that secure, compared to an invisible, untouchable window into the real world. Rope Trick allows you to hide 7 people for CL hours out of a low-level slot. Until you can cast MMM, and don't care about wasting the slot, I'd rather use it than any of the other protection spells(though I might combo it with some of them).

[Saph]

*shrug* The way I see it, you're going to have encounters one way or another. Using Rope Trick just delays it. I prefer Secure Shelter because it's more comfortable and sends the message "if you want to meet us, knock." Avoiding everything isn't necessarily a good thing, and isn't really practical anyway since the whole point of an adventure is usually to interact with things.

- Saph