Test your mettle

[herrhauptmann]

I was wondering, does anyone know of a way to gain the Mettle class feature?

The only route I can think of is by taking a level in Pious Templar, and I'd swear there was another way in BoED, but I just skimmed through that and can't find it.
Thanks

for those who don't know, it works like Evasion, but for Fort AND Will saves instead of Ref. If any spell or effect says Fort for half, or Will partial, you end up taking no effects. So it's a very good class feature for Clerics and monks who already have good fort and will saves.

[Sanguine]

Hexblades get it, not sure what level though.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Hexblades get it, not sure what level though.

Level 3

[Sanguine]

Level 3

Thank you.

[MisterSaturnine]

Hexblades get it at 3rd level, and the Witch Slayer prestige class from Tome of Magic gets it at 2nd level. The prerequisites for Witch Slayer (other than the special one, which can be handwaved or put into backstory if needs be) are quite easy to meet, it grants full BAB, and if you're working on a Mage Slayer build, its capstone (Momentary Disjunction) is pretty spiffy, especially with the Extend Supernatural Ability feat.

EDIT: So this is what being ninja'd feels like...and I was wrong about it only working for Will saves.

[Frosty]

Crusaders get is at level...11 I think. The prestige class Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex 2) at 4th level.

[Sanguine]

Crusaders get is at level...11 I think.

13 actually. Just checked.

[herrhauptmann]

It's funny you mention Witchslayer, I was thinking of taking Occult slayer as well.
It's for an ECL 12 game.

So it might end up being Ftr 5 Occult Slayer 5 Witchslayer 2.
Needed Imp Init, Weapon Focus, and a large number of skills, bleh. 4ranks Know: Arcana, 3 ranks spellcraft. 4Ranks Know: Planes
9 feats total, assuming human and no flaws.

I know "never take an odd number of fighter levels", but DM wants me to limit multiclassing and powergaming

Feats: Improved Init, Weapon Focus, Power attack, Cleave, Imp Sunder, Imp Bullrush, Leap Attack, Shocktrooper, Combat Brute

[MisterSaturnine]

EDIT: And that's what I get for not reading full posts. Still, I do suggest going into the Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane) feat tree later on. It's got some good stuff.

[herrhauptmann]

EDIT: And that's what I get for not reading full posts. Still, I do suggest going into the Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane) feat tree later on. It's got some good stuff.

Ooh, pierce magical protection. That looks nice. I wonder why they dont' set it below Mage slayer and indented, like they do with other feat trees.

Edit: Perhaps Fighter 6, Hellreaver 4, Occultslayer 2. Occultslayer looks better on average, with Witchslayer being better in certain situations.

[MisterSaturnine]

Ooh, pierce magical protection. That looks nice. I wonder why they dont' set it below Mage slayer and indented, like they do with other feat trees.

Editing errors, I assume. But yeah, Pierce Magical Protection is nice, but Pierce Magical Concealment's even nicer. At higher levels, stuff like mirror image, blur, and displacement are much more effective defenses for magic users (and people in general, I suppose), than mere AC. Pierce Magical Concealment kind of skirts around that.

[FinalJustice]

The problem with Pierce Magical Protection is its potency. With a hit, one can dispel Foresight with no check, since it gives a +2 insight bonus to AC. That's just annoying.

[Eldariel]

The problem with Pierce Magical Protection is its potency. With a hit, one can dispel Foresight with no check, since it gives a +2 insight bonus to AC. That's just annoying.

That's mostly a consequence of spells being too good though; if anti-spell measures suck too much, they're no good (which is already sorta the case thanks to PMP being limited to standard action attacks; you can get rid of a portion of their defenses, but you can't really threaten their life without massive amounts of work, as it can't be a charge, maneuver nor a full attack).

It's also noteworthy that it does nothing to Polymorph and its ilk which tend to give casters obscene defenses anyways (coupled with illusion, another thing it doesn't touch). Sure, PMC enables bypassing the illusions, but it's another feat spent, and they're still left with whatever non-direct AC/visibility protections, Contingencies and overall tools to stop you from getting to them in the first place.

[herrhauptmann]

Just to make sure, when I use Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment, I may only make a single attack right? I lose any and all iterative attacks I may have had?

What are examples of spells that Pierce Magical Concealment can't affect?
It states an invisible wizard in a fog, I still get a 20% miss, I assume due to the fog, if it's a normal fog.

And pierce magical protection works on spells that grant armor, insight, morale, deflection bonuses, but not against someone's +X studded leather, right?

I'm currently leaning towards Pierce Protection, because I'm having trouble fitting in the blindfight feat.
Ftr 4, Occult Slayer 4 or 5, Hellreaver 3 or 4
1-Imp Initiative, Weapon Focus, PA
2) Cleave
3)Imp Sunder
4)Mageslayer
6)Combat Brute
9)Leap Attack
12) Pierce Protection.
Flaws are usually houseruled to be twice as devastating, assuming we can even take them.

[Aneantir]

So it might end up being Ftr 4 Brb 1 Occult Slayer 5 Witchslayer 2.

Fixed that for you.

[MisterSaturnine]

Fixed that for you.

He said his DM frowns on too much multiclassing, so he's taking the 5th fighter level even though it grants him nothing more than a point of BAB.

[Eldariel]

Just to make sure, when I use Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment, I may only make a single attack right? I lose any and all iterative attacks I may have had?

It basically states "Make a single attack with no bonuses". Basically, it's a separate standard action and can't really be modified by anything. However, abilities that can apply to any attack can be applied here.

So stuff for charges et al. is useless in combination, but there are select few things that would work. Most importantly, Deep Impact still functions - a convenient way of bypassing most of e.g. Polymorph's granted defenses and thus being able to Power Attack for a ****ton of (hopefully lethal) damage.

What are examples of spells that Pierce Magical Concealment can't affect?
It states an invisible wizard in a fog, I still get a 20% miss, I assume due to the fog, if it's a normal fog.

Basically any spell with "instantaneous" duration. They create something non-magical. Others are really up to DM adjudication - many fogs have durations since they simply disperse in time and there's nothing inherently magical about them after their creation.

Also, some DMs might judge that while you aren't bothered by the actual miss chance from Invisibility, you still don't see Invisibles by nature so you need some way of locating the opponent to ignore the miss chance. Stuff like Mirror Image and Displacement - the usual top defenses - you should chew through no problem regardless of your DM though.

And pierce magical protection works on spells that grant armor, insight, morale, deflection bonuses, but not against someone's +X studded leather, right?

This is correct, as long as the spell is directly granting you the bonuses. Something like Alter Self or Wildshape changes the caster to another creature, and that creature may have Natural Armor and Dex higher than the caster (or likely does), but this does not qualify for the spell. Mage Armor, Shield et al. though would.

I'm currently leaning towards Pierce Protection, because I'm having trouble fitting in the blindfight feat.
Ftr 4, Occult Slayer 4 or 5, Hellreaver 3 or 4
1-Imp Initiative, Weapon Focus, PA
2) Cleave
3)Imp Sunder
4)Mageslayer
6)Combat Brute
9)Leap Attack
12) Pierce Protection.
Flaws are usually houseruled to be twice as devastating, assuming we can even take them.

Why do you have Cleave there? Seems you could easily give it up, considering you specialize in breaking casters anyways. Also, I can't help but imagine there'd be some better source of Weapon Focus than just picking it up as a feat. Can't think of any right now though :/ I'll get back to you if I have more ideas.

Also, I'd definitely pick two Ranger-levels (you need more base class levels anyways as Occult Slayer requires BAB +5); pick up "Favored Enemy: Arcanists" to pick up Favored Power Attack, and Strong-Arm style [Dragon Whatever, in Crystalkeep] level 2 to pick up Power Attack from there (so you don't get left behind feat-wise; obviously you start taking these levels on level 1 to get the tasty skillpoints), and enjoy your 3x PA vs. Arcanists. Would also add some valuable Reflex-save to your progression.

[herrhauptmann]

Fixed that for you.

But you missed the other build, right before your post.

The DM doesn't want me to powergame, because then he'll powergame the monsters, and we've got a few less experienced players in the group.
And if I were to really do a 1 level dip, it'd be for cleric with a war domain. Freeing up a feat, and making me just 1 flaw away from Pierce magical protection AND concealment.

[herrhauptmann]

Why do you have Cleave there? Seems you could easily give it up, considering you specialize in breaking casters anyways. Also, I can't help but imagine there'd be some better source of Weapon Focus than just picking it up as a feat. Can't think of any right now though :/ I'll get back to you if I have more ideas.

Also, I'd definitely pick two Ranger-levels (you need more base class levels anyways as Occult Slayer requires BAB +5); pick up "Favored Enemy: Arcanists" to pick up Favored Power Attack, and Strong-Arm style [Dragon Whatever, in Crystalkeep] level 2 to pick up Power Attack from there (so you don't get left behind feat-wise; obviously you start taking these levels on level 1 to get the tasty skillpoints), and enjoy your 3x PA vs. Arcanists. Would also add some valuable Reflex-save to your progression.

Is strong-arm style a variant of the ranger class? If so, it won't be allowed. And I doubt he'll allow Favored Enemy:Arcanists, but I'll throw it past him.
I have cleave because I doubt I'll be fighting arcanists in every battle. So I'll need some way to get a few more enemies.
edit: Which book is Favored Enemy: Arcanists in? I can't find it in Complete Mage or Arcane.

[Quietus]

Kensai also provides the Mettle feature, does it not? At level 2 or 3?

::Edit:: Kensai is in Complete Warrior.

[Eldariel]

Is strong-arm style a variant of the ranger class? If so, it won't be allowed. And I doubt he'll allow Favored Enemy:Arcanists, but I'll throw it past him.
I have cleave because I doubt I'll be fighting arcanists in every battle. So I'll need some way to get a few more enemies.

Strong-Arm Style is from a list of additional combat styles (you can find it in Crystal Keep). PHB has Archery and Two-Weapon Fighting, Strong-Arm is from Dragon Magazine. And Favored Enemy: Arcanist is in Complete Mage as a veritable Favored Enemy-option; seeing how well it fits your character concept, it seems like something you could get. It's there in under the name "Arcane Hunter" in the ACFs section.

Hell, if you also gave up your spellcasting for a bonus feat (as per Complete Champion), you could go Ranger 6 for decent results. It'd have as many feats as right now (with Fighter 5), but a ton of other stuff like Favored Enemy: Arcanist (and a second one, you could ask for "Divinists" or something else that covers the rest of the spellcasters to drive home the point that You Really Hate Spells) and enough skill points to get something done.


Failing that, just go Fighter 6. Costs you an extra level, but buys you the extra feat you want. Pushes Mettle a bit down the road, but c'est la vie. I don't see Mettle truly being all that impressive anyways, not more so than the feats you're getting.

[Quietus]

Failing that, just go Fighter 6. Costs you an extra level, but buys you the extra feat you want. Pushes Mettle a bit down the road, but c'est la vie. I don't see Mettle truly being all that impressive anyways, not more so than the feats you're getting.

I'd second this. It's simple, so your DM can't call cheese (not that multiclassing is, but hey..). And as opposed to Fighter5, it's +1 BAB, +1 all base saves, and +1 feat.

[herrhauptmann]

Well what he deosn't want is me to have 1 or 2 levels each in 3 base classes and the same with Prestige classes. My last character in one of his campaigns was the same way: Barbarian/Fighter/Cleric/Dwarf Paragon/ Dwarven Defender/ Pious Templar

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Survivor gets you Mettle. Nothing else, but it gets you Mettle.

[Keld Denar]

Man, then your DM wouldn't like one of my favorite melee builder...

Dwarf Rng1/Ftr2/Brb2/Deepwarden2/EWM2/PiousTemplar4/OccultSlayer5/PT+2

best part is...no multiclass penalties!

lol....casters get their spells for customization. Everyone else has multiclassing.

[herrhauptmann]

Survivor gets you Mettle. Nothing else, but it gets you Mettle.

A feat? The only one I can think of is a regional feat in Faerun, which gives a bonus on fort saves and survival checks.

[Eldariel]

A feat? The only one I can think of is a regional feat in Faerun, which gives a bonus on fort saves and survival checks.

Survivor is a crappy 0 BAB class from Savage Species. Something Commoner can take level 1. Yes, it's really that bad.

[Myrmex]

But you missed the other build, right before your post.

The DM doesn't want me to powergame, because then he'll powergame the monsters, and we've got a few less experienced players in the group.
And if I were to really do a 1 level dip, it'd be for cleric with a war domain. Freeing up a feat, and making me just 1 flaw away from Pierce magical protection AND concealment.

But cleric has 3/4 BAB, which would delay your PrC progression by a level.

[Person_Man]

Things that provide Mettle, from the lists of stuff:

Hexblade 3
Pious Templar 1, ecl 6, Complete divine
Vigilante 9, ecl 14, Complete Adventurer
Witch Slayer 2, ecl 7, Tome of Magic
Sohei ?, ECL ?
Crusader 13, Tome of Battle
Deneith Warden 5, ecl 9, Eberron: Dragonmarked
Master Specialist (abjuration) 7, ecl 10, Complete Mage - works for all saves
Argent Fist 8, ecl 13, Faiths of Eberron
Hellreaver 4, ecl 9, Fiendish Codex II
Kinslayer 1, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark

Honorable Mention
Iron Mind 5, ecl 10, Races of Stone - "mettle of will" affects will saves only
Goliath Rogue 2 racial substitution level, ecl 3, Races of Stone - "mettle of mountains" affects Fort saves only.

Note that Mettle is far more limited then Evasion. Virtually all Ref Saves are "Reflex Half" whereas very few Fort or Will Saves are "Fortitude Partial" or "Will Partial." (And the partial effects are pretty minor).

However, if you buy the Tabard of Valor (16,000 gp, Complete Champion pg 142) and you have Mettle, you get IMPROVED METTLE when reduced to 50% hit points or less. Improved Mettle is ridiculously potent (especially when combined with Evasion or Improved Evasion) when it's in effect, as it basically let's you auto-pass 2/3 of Saving Throws.

[woodenbandman]

I know "never take an odd number of fighter levels", but DM wants me to limit multiclassing and powergaming

That's dumb.

Maybe you should go Hexblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny 2, if you don't mind being evil.