Aikido monk?

[Nathan W]

I am attempting to create a class for practitioners of aikido.

As it says in Wikipedia “Ueshiba's goal was to create an art that practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury.
Aikido is performed by blending with the motion of the attacker and redirecting the force of the attack rather than opposing it head-on. This requires very little physical energy, as the aikidōka (aikido practitioner) "leads" the attacker's momentum using entering and turning movements. The techniques are completed with various throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido can be categorized under the general umbrella of grappling arts.”


Aikido monk.

Point 1: Free disarm and trips attempts when attacked
Must be good
Vow of non-violence if they attack it’s like a monk/paladin becoming CEx2
Nth level +1 total defense and every nth level after
Good reflex good fort good will
Armor and weight lose powers same as monk
+wis ++dex to ac
Taunt
Anti bulrush and charge
EDIT: Good base attack bonus
Swift 5ft step. At high level retroactive 5ft step
+n to disarm +n to trip every nth level
+n to ac for touch attempts to provoke a grapple (see point 1)
Bonus feats – no improved unarmed strike needed
Acrobatic
Agile
Variation on combat reflexes. see point 1
Doge STACKS W/ TOAL DEFENCE
Improved disarm \
Improved grapple | - dex insed of str
Improved trip /
Lightning reflexes
Uncanny doge
Mobility STACKS W/ TOAL DEFENCE
Snatch and deflect arrows
Skills
Balance
Escape artist
Jump
Tumble


Comments?
Help?
Suggestion?

[ondonaflash]

Comment: I detest Aikido because its designed to protect the attacker from injury. If a mother****er steps up to me, I want to be able to snap his arm in seven different places. I completely lack any sort of compassion for someone who is trying to attack me.

[Nathan W]

It’s a doge tank. It doesn’t need an attack, that’s what party members are for.

I was hoping that the comments would be more like "x should be a class skill as well" or "it should get +1 to total defense at second level".

[lsfreak]

Taunting doesn't work well in D&D, at least not in the WoW sense of the word where someone is forced to attack one person. Likewise, tanking means giving them a reason to attack you, or a way of keeping someone from attacking your allies. As this guy presents absolutely no threat whatsoever, that means you need a way of stopping someone in their tracks. With a horrible BAB, you won't be able to trip, grapple, or disarm well.

[Nathan W]

Good points. I originally gave it bad bab because he not very aggressive but its suppose to be good at those things so I should change that. I’m not really sure how to fix taunting. Suggestions?

[Ouranos]

So, if they can't step up and attack unless meleed... what do they do against a caster?

[Nathan W]

Trip or grapple him with their action. Then have their friends beat him up.

[Tingel]

I don't understand why the Will save should be "horrible". Regular monks are strong in all three saving throw categories, aren't they? Since this aikido monk of yours is even more defensive than the regular variety, I wouldn't lower his defenses - just give him three strong saving throws.

I also wonder about the reasoning for his ability to taunt enemies. Isn't provoking someone to attack you almost as much an act of aggression as attacking him yourself? If the aikido monk only fights in self-defense and has sworn a strict vow of non-violence, then I do not find it fitting for him to taunt other people. Maybe you could explain your reasoning.

[Nathan W]

If he doesn’t have an ability of that nature then, as Isfreak said, he poses no threat and can be ignored. Although having him shout “Yo mama’s so fat they use a grapefruit for her mini!” doesn’t exactly fit with the flavor. Maybe a honor challenge like the knight has? Maybe whenever an attack is made within his reach? I don’t know, it looks like this will take the most working out.

[elliott20]

or you can just make a setting sun swordsage.

just because aikido is primarily a defensive art doesn't you mean can't use it offensively or initiate the attack. (hopkido anyone?) You're just encouraged not to for philosophical reasons

[erikun]

3.5e, I suppose?

The best abilities to represent Aikido are grappling, combat reflexes, expertise, and disarm. Some feats found in other books (like throwing an opponent that misses you with an attack) would be rather appropriate.

[elliott20]

3.5e, I suppose?

The best abilities to represent Aikido are grappling, combat reflexes, expertise, and disarm. Some feats found in other books (like throwing an opponent that misses you with an attack) would be rather appropriate.

once again, right up the swordsage's alley via setting sun discipline. Yeah, I'm sure he's sick of hearing that by now.

[Nathan W]

Where’s setting sun swordmage from? I googled it but I couldn’t find anything.

[elliott20]

Tome of Battle is where Swordsage is from. In TOB, all the base classes have the ability to use martial maneuvers, which are kind of like spells for melee types. The maneuvers are drawn from different discipline (kinda like how spells are split up into schools of magic), setting sun being one of those disciplines that you can learn maneuvers from if you're a swordsage.

It's actually a fairly well written supplement in terms of flavor and mechanics. That is, once you got past the whole "magical fighters" thing and the fact that the classes out of the box are far more powerful than most melee classes in core.

[imp_fireball]

or you can just make a setting sun swordsage.

just because aikido is primarily a defensive art doesn't you mean can't use it offensively or initiate the attack. (hopkido anyone?) You're just encouraged not to for philosophical reasons

It's alright to have a crass aikido monk that intimidates enemies into fighting him.

It's just that challenging people as a special ability isn't really something that goes with being an Aikido monk any more than it would go with being a rogue... or say, a fighter.

[elliott20]

that makes sense to me too, since this means you're actually taking advantage of in-character reasons for making another enemy fight you.

but an actual "taunt" ability via WoW style aggro? ugh... sounds stupid as all hell.

I still maintain though, that aikido can be used offensively, if only for the reason that while theoretically aikido has no offensive moves, you can simply just give them the ability to create their own supplement it with other martial arts moves. (which, by the way, is how real life aikido people do it. They basically just add some other skills to their skill set.)

there is, of course, aikido's more brutal cousin, Aiki-jutsu, which DOES have offensive moves since it was developed not as some kind of spiritual enlightenment martial art, but as an actual form of martial skill used for lethal application.

[Bhu]

Even Aikido teaches you to break bones. Well more accurately it teaches you joint and limb manipulation that could easily be used to break bone. But if you break the bone you cant use the hold to inflict pain anymore, which is what you use to control your oponnent and make him decide fighting isn't in his best interests.

[Markus Darkmind]

I'd say that an Aikidoka prefers to not damage the enemy, but not that he's forced not to do so.....
Confusing enough?

[Ossian]

I'd make the aikido monk by tweaking and tinkering with existing feats, especially if you use the Oriental Adventures s.book.

However, if you want to go for a class, I concur that bab and saves should be the same as the monk's.

As a high level feature (to represent the "magic" that old, venerable Aikido Masters perform leaving everyone around the tatami shocked and awed) why not a "size increase" while grappling? Perhaps +1 size at level 15 and +2 sized at level 20? (this could be a bit broken, I don't know).

* old bearded master pins troll down holding his wrist with two fingers, while stroking his venerable beard and raising one venerable eyebrow *

[Yora]

Aikido is not a strictly pacifistic fighting style. But it offers the practitioner ways to disable an attacker if they don't want to hurt him, for whatever reason. And most warrior codes demand that one kills and harms only when absolutly neccessary. And as Bhu said, you can easily break an arm or have your attacker crash with his head into walls or the floor, which can lead to substantial harm. But it's still far less lethal than putting a sword through his chest.
By itself, aikido allows you only to protect yourself and disable a single attacker. If you are really good you can also defend against multiple attackers simultaneously. But to really fight against enemies and defeat them, aikido works best as a suplement to other agressive fighting styles. Even if you want to kill your enemy, aikido still offers a lot of options that help you surviving long enough to get a fatal hit on him.

My sensei once did a demonstration on a sports festival, in which he defended himself unarmed against two attackers with Katanas. After just a few seconds of whirling around, they had no more swords and he had two. And if you're also good at kendo, that's the point where the butchering starts.

[elliott20]

Aikido is not a strictly pacifistic fighting style. But it offers the practitioner ways to disable an attacker if they don't want to hurt him, for whatever reason. And most warrior codes demand that one kills and harms only when absolutly neccessary. And as Bhu said, you can easily break an arm or have your attacker crash with his head into walls or the floor, which can lead to substantial harm. But it's still far less lethal than putting a sword through his chest.
By itself, aikido allows you only to protect yourself and disable a single attacker. If you are really good you can also defend against multiple attackers simultaneously. But to really fight against enemies and defeat them, aikido works best as a suplement to other agressive fighting styles. Even if you want to kill your enemy, aikido still offers a lot of options that help you surviving long enough to get a fatal hit on him.

My sensei once did a demonstration on a sports festival, in which he defended himself unarmed against two attackers with Katanas. After just a few seconds of whirling around, they had no more swords and he had two. And if you're also good at kendo, that's the point where the butchering starts.

this is essentially what I'm saying. Aikido, strictly speaking, while has a pacifist teachings, it is more than capable of being something far more lethal. Supplement with an actual attack art, and you're good.

in terms of a base class, well... I generally don't like the idea of creating an entire base class (or even a PrC) for just a single fighting style. For one thing, most of these fighting style classes tend to be incredibly weak and you almost immediately lose it's power as soon as you're up against a non-humanoid monster.

Really, if you want to do Aikido style, and you don't want to do setting sun Swordsage, you might be better off replicating all the features through a number of feats, and allow anyone with improved unarmed strike to use them. don't forget to add in feats that allow you grapple creatures much larger and much stronger than you.

[Nero24200]

If you want opponents to go for this kind of character, but still keep the class defensive, perhaps a class feature which allows the akido warrior to make AOO against foes which attack his allies? Being able to trip or disarm a foe about to attack an ally could be one way of forcing attention on him.

[Ossian]

Just a though for class trait. Imagine it has Combat Reflexes & Improved Grapple as prereqs.

Whenever an opponent either fumbles (natural 1) or misses you by "x" margin (with "X" possibly scaling up with your level, but not too dramatically) you can immediately make an AOO against him (provided you don't exceed your max AOOs of 1+DEX bonus) using as a damage the base damage + STR bonus he would have inflicted you. Thus, attacking you with a lot of strength (includes power attack, of course) or with big weapons, makes you prone to suffer a lot of "retaliation damage", proportional to the brute force you put in it. This sounds aikido-ish enough and kinda good since we are talking about a fictional fantasy D&D kind of aikido.

What say you ? :)

O.

PS
I like this thread.

[elliott20]

on a roll of 1? so what is the guy gonna do for the 95% of the time he's not rolling natural 1's? sew?

If you ask me, to make this class idea even remotely viable as a concept, you have to allow them to use their ability more often than that. i.e. whenever an enemy attack misses, free grapple check. you get a bonus to the grapple check based on the foes STR bonus and their size.

though quite honestly, you could do just as well by making this into a series of feats and stick those in.

[Set]

Looking back at 1st edition Oriental Adventures, abilities such as 'Great Throw' seem like they would be logical for this sort of build.

I'd also be disposed towards just handling it as a series of feats, with improved disarm, grapple and trip options. Perhaps the Aikido Monk starts with a variation on Dodge or Combat Expertise that gives them a free AoO to Trip, Disarm or Grapple (but not strike!) whenever someone misses them in melee combat, and can learn another technique that allows them to place a 'Tripped' foe in any adjacent square by flipping them into place. There might even be a Dungeoncrasher sort of option to fling foes into other foes, getting a free Bull Rush type effect on a second foe out of the maneuver, or into solid walls, causing them 1d6 falling damage.

Running it as a Class Variant (similar to those in Unearthed Arcana), one could dump hand to hand damage down one die, and grant full BAB for disarms, grapples and trips only. Other less 'Aikido' feeling Monk abilities could also be swapped out for options that would be more in keeping with the theme, or they could be introduced as Feats, such as a 'Pain Lock' grapple technique that allows the Monk to not only damage a grappled foe, but to cause them to make Fort saves or be Nauseated from the pain (or just sickened). A 'Dextrous Grappler' option could allow the Aikido Monk to do the one-armed 'I grapple your wrist' option and retain not only a free limb for other use, but retain their Dex bonus to AC, even while grappling!

[Arakune]

Comment: I detest Aikido because its designed to protect the attacker from injury. If a mother****er steps up to me, I want to be able to snap his arm in seven different places. I completely lack any sort of compassion for someone who is trying to attack me.

Try hapkido, the same philosophy (circular movements, doesn't opose enemy strenght) and much more screaming (protecting the attacker is entirely optional).

[Bastian]

Comment: I detest Aikido because its designed to protect the attacker from injury. If a mother****er steps up to me, I want to be able to snap his arm in seven different places. I completely lack any sort of compassion for someone who is trying to attack me.

While I do respect your personal take on the subject, as an aikidoka myself I respectfully disagree about your description.

How you actually practiced Aikido at a high level?

Traditional tecniques are designed to protect the attacker not only for a philosophical reason (which you may or may not adhere to) but also for safety in training. Nothing would actually stop you from following through with a serires of atemi or actually snapping an arm in several pieces. If that's what you are really looking for.

Personally, I have compassion for you lack of compassion.

Suppose a mother steps on you.
And suppose you actually snap his arm.
And suppose you can do that without sustaining injuries.

What would you have achieved? Aggression is still there.
In you, and in your attacker.
You have simply increased it.

Bushi no nasake, my friend.

[Bastian]

Aikido is not a strictly pacifistic fighting style. But it offers the practitioner ways to disable an attacker if they don't want to hurt him, for whatever reason. And most warrior codes demand that one kills and harms only when absolutly neccessary. And as Bhu said, you can easily break an arm or have your attacker crash with his head into walls or the floor, which can lead to substantial harm. But it's still far less lethal than putting a sword through his chest.
By itself, aikido allows you only to protect yourself and disable a single attacker. If you are really good you can also defend against multiple attackers simultaneously. But to really fight against enemies and defeat them, aikido works best as a suplement to other agressive fighting styles. Even if you want to kill your enemy, aikido still offers a lot of options that help you surviving long enough to get a fatal hit on him.

My sensei once did a demonstration on a sports festival, in which he defended himself unarmed against two attackers with Katanas. After just a few seconds of whirling around, they had no more swords and he had two. And if you're also good at kendo, that's the point where the butchering starts.

Perfectly right.

Aikido is a mindset, an approach, a path. The tecniques are there to enable that mindset to appear and live in actual practice.

The first students of Ueshiba were already proficient in kendo, judo or karate. They were quite adept to causing injury and direct confrontation.

It's not the tecnique (jutsu), it's about a way of life (do).

onegai shimasu, my friend

[Krazddndfreek]

I think someone suggested this already but you could just make it a fighting style like they have in unearthed arcana

[Bastian]

Just a though for class trait. Imagine it has Combat Reflexes & Improved Grapple as prereqs.

Whenever an opponent either fumbles (natural 1) or misses you by "x" margin (with "X" possibly scaling up with your level, but not too dramatically) you can immediately make an AOO against him (provided you don't exceed your max AOOs of 1+DEX bonus) using as a damage the base damage + STR bonus he would have inflicted you. Thus, attacking you with a lot of strength (includes power attack, of course) or with big weapons, makes you prone to suffer a lot of "retaliation damage", proportional to the brute force you put in it. This sounds aikido-ish enough and kinda good since we are talking about a fictional fantasy D&D kind of aikido.

What say you ? :)

O.

PS
I like this thread.

Although I have limited knowledge of D&D I think that's aikido-ish enough, and a good trasposition. I am curious about how you will develop it.

PPS I like this thread too