Burrow/spring attack

[oxinabox]

EDIT: This is for dnd 3.5
General Question:
Can You spring attack with any of your listed speeds? or just with walk.
or even make 2 move action's.
Specific:
As a earth Mephling (Planar Handbook) with burrow speed of 10ft. and walk speed of ~30 ft. can i burrow under my enemy use spring attack to burrow 5 ft up at them. hit them, then use my other 5 ft, to go back under the ground safe again.

This tactic wouldn't work against anyone sensible enough to move 10 ft in there turn, but i might be able to get around that somehow.
EDIT: If i can hide my borrow speed from everyone but the dm, he might just stand there and ready and attack to "Cut down that [explicit-removed], when he pops out of the ground, but as a small character with dodge, i think i can take that.

Just on note I don't plan to do this in a real game. I'm not that broken. this is for a routing (game breaking) competition.
we're going to be dueling it of in a round robin tournament.
I'm not yet sure on the rules as it hasn't been formally announced.

I'll Probably be up against a pc that can can wield colossal weapons without penalty, eg a Lolth-touched giant with a size increasing template and enlarge humanoid permanency.
and against a wizard who will instantly move into a demiplane...




Spring Attack:

Spoiler

Show

SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL]
You are trained in fast melee attacks and fancy footwork.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you
can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total
distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way
does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you
attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other
creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing
heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your
attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack

[Killer Angel]

Just on note I don't plan to do this in a real game. I'm not that broken. this is for a routing (game breaking) competition.

Just to say that, if possible, is very good, but "broken"? it's denied by anything that flies (or has borrow)

[Fishy]

Given that there's Flyby Attack for flying characters and Saghuin Flip for swimming characters, it would seem like you can't ordinarily use Spring Attack while using a wacky movement mode.

[Fixer]

As far as I can recall you can spring attack with any of your movement rates. I believe you can also use it when flying, if Fly-by Attack wasn't a lot less feat-intensive.

YMMV

[oxinabox]

Just to say that, if possible, is very good, but "broken"? it's denied by anything that flies (or has borrow)

Yeah, when i thought about the idea i forgot about reading actions

EDIT:
It's also denied by the wizard who shifts into a demiplane, and fight's with his astra projection, planeshifted back to the Prime material...
Oh that brings up an Erikson reference: If only we had hand of the Claw and a High mage or two, we'ld crack open that demiplane and cut that mage down. (paraphrased)

[Fitz10019]

Look for Rapid Burrow in the Spell Compendium, to get more movement.

[oxinabox]

I'll have a look at that.
I'll get it in scroll or potion form.
Burrows under ground. stays there until finished drinking half a dozen potions.

Rihgt now i'm thinking.
round 1
Walk towards my foe.
Attack him,
then burrow 5 foot underground (Doesn't grant AoO (attack of opertunity) as is a spring attack)

round 2
do a double move burrow 10 ft in anydirection
(Foe can't know which, or if he can via listen check i just keep burrowing until he fails his check, i'll make sure to invest bulk skill points in listen & move silently)

round 3
~can i do this in one round, i'm not sure how multiple move speeds stack
Burrow up 5 ft
move my walk distance
Attack him,
then burrow 5 foot underground

round 4
Goto round 2

Most excellently, i don't think you can ready a Move and Attack, so i'ld be safe from redied actions
Edit: unfortuantly he could ready a trigger: Attack him as soon as he comes with in range.

1 level of barbarian would increase my speed also.
and give me the rage for 1 fight.

[Fastmover]

Would be cool with Skirmish and entangling attacks too.

[Quietus]

I'll have a look at that.
I'll get it in scroll or potion form.
Burrows under ground. stays there until finished drinking half a dozen potions.

Rihgt now i'm thinking.
round 1
Walk towards my foe.
Attack him,
then burrow 5 foot underground (Doesn't grant AoO (attack of opertunity) as is a spring attack)

round 2
do a double move burrow 10 ft in anydirection
(Foe can't know which, or if he can via listen check i just keep burrowing until he fails his check, i'll make sure to invest bulk skill points in listen & move silently)

round 3
~can i do this in one round, i'm not sure how multiple move speeds stack
Burrow up 5 ft
move my walk distance
Attack him,
then burrow 5 foot underground

round 4
Goto round 2

Most excellently, i don't think you can ready a Move and Attack, so i'ld be safe from redied actions
Edit: unfortuantly he could ready a trigger: Attack him as soon as he comes with in range.

1 level of barbarian would increase my speed also.
and give me the rage for 1 fight.

The idea of getting rage is a bad one. Your style of attack is slow, you'll end up fatigued.

Get something that can get hide/move silently, as being underground provides cover. He can still try to ready an action to hit you, but if he can't SEE you (aka : You beat his Spot check), he doesn't get the chance.

As for move speeds stacking, you pick one or the other. You don't get to move 30 feet across land and 10 burrowing in one turn. To this effect, get some Boots of Haste, or something similar - Haste increases all your movement modes by 30 feet, giving you a 40 foot burrow speed for 10 non-consecutive rounds per day. Activate them any time you are about to pop out of the ground.

Also, use a reach weapon. If at any point you're fighting something melee-like that doesn't have reach, they can't make the AoO against you because you're not in reach.

Regarding the half-giant, make sure you know what creature type it is, because if it's not humanoid, then Enlarge Person potions fail.

::Edit:: Sorry, Haste increases the burrow speed by 30', up to double your normal max. You'd only get a 20' burrow speed, but that's still not-insignificant an increase.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, someone came up with a Mole Handbook a while back.

One of the most powerful and overlooked rule mechanics is line of sight. If your enemy does not have line of sight to your square, then they can't target you (although they can still use an area of effect attack for a nearby square that they do have line of sight to). So if you burrow beneath the ground, or stand behind a wall out of an enemy's movement range + sight, you're pretty much immune to most attacks. There are a number of strong tactics that exploit this. The easiest thing to do is just stand around the corner and Summon things, and Move farther away each round. Or you can use Shot on the Run and Manyshot. You can also use Ride By Attack + Pounce + Psionic Charge + Burrow to hit and run (Sandworm Dragoon is particulary good at this). Or you can use a Shadowpounce combo. It also helps to have other PCs or summoned enemies to pin down the bad guys while you bounce in and out of line of sight on the edge of combat. Suffice to say, there are many possibilities.

The biggest obstacle is that if you use this tactic too often (or any one tactic too often) then your DM is likely to come up with enemies specifically to nerf your build. So I would suggest caution you not to overly invest your resources in it.

[oxinabox]

Can't yous running tatics, as i will be in a finite arena i expect.
Enemies are predetermined, as they are what ever routed combo's the other players think up.
And hopefully everyone forgets about burrow

EDIT: Wow, mo'le's hand books good.
Rightnow I'm thinking.:
Mephling (1 or is it 2)
BArabrian 1 (for rage, and inporved speed)
Monk...


Actually Wildren, looks awesome fun to play.
Scent! and borrow. I love having scent
And I can say, my wildren Looks like a beagle, and that will get much LOLs seeing as how the last character i played in Club game was a hound archelon beagle.
Can't rate to see there faces when i say:
"My character burrowes 10 ft under the ground and, unless your can stop me; spends one hour building a warren"
Not to meantion the outsider subtype. imunity to dominarte humanoid.
Now if i combine the with lolthtouched template we have, for LA: +2:
starting stats:
+10 con, +6 str, -2 dex, -2 cha.
and a +4 str -2 AC, natural fury, that stacks with barbarian rage.

+10 con should give me the bulk hp, which when combined with either barbarian DR, or from Adamantium armour. means i don't care about being hit constantly.
since my AC will be -12ish when fury raging.

now the problem is getting the feats to do spring attack.
I can get 2 extra by taking 2 levals of fighter, which doesn't much hurt my barbarian levels (favored class). since I don't need trap sense, or more than 1 or 2 rages.

Wait if i'm raged can i actually use spring attack? or would that count as running away?

[Fastmover]

What if you where to also attack with Force spells while underground. If you are able to pinpoint your target couldn't you simply blast them from under the ground?

[Lycanthromancer]

What if you where to also attack with Force spells while underground. If you are able to pinpoint your target couldn't you simply blast them from under the ground?

No line of effect; it's blocked by...guess what? The ground.

You could always ride, say, a bulette, and get Ride-By Attack. Make sure you give your landshark the Speed of Thought feat.

[edit] Also, go incorporeal. You can stay 5' underground, and still move at your normal speed (or even up to 5x your normal speed, if you have the Run feat).

[oxinabox]

What if you where to also attack with Force spells while underground. If you are able to pinpoint your target couldn't you simply blast them from under the ground?

Nice idea.
But to get line of sight via listen/scent from underground. I'll have to talk to a DM befoerew i go investing levels in psion/ get a wand.

EDIT: about incoreperal:
Whats the lvl adjustment on on oth those?
I can burrow for level adj 1.
"and i don't have to risk some wizard with some special destroy incroperal spell, that they woulkd have looked up specially to defeat who ever tries to be incorperal
I assume such spells exist.

EDIT
Hmm ride a bullete.
I doubt i could go into battle with one.
But:Z
Prebattle: DM: "why does you character sheet have 2 months worth or watter and Iron rations included?" (as an outsider do i need to eat?)
Battle commences:My character Imedatly burrows underground:
spends 1 month looking for a bullete.
spends 1 month using handle animal to train it in to a riding beast.
Returns to battle:
Enemy has died of starvation.

EDIT: was reading thread, and apprarenly rage is bad.
But can't i burrow underground. make a warren and reest for 24 hours?