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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kobold-Bard's Avatar

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    Default Not another Fighter fix...

    ...ok, so it is another Fighter fix, but since you're here you may as well take a look anyway.

    This is my first ever attemt at homebrewing, so please be honest, but also please be gentle, lest you crush my fragile spirit

    Without further ado I give you:

    The Fighter

    Edit: spoilered for your own good.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Fighters have the following game statistics.
    Abilities: Constitution is the Fighter's most important statistic, both for high Hit Points and because it gives him increased freedom when selecting feats. Strength and Dexterity are essential to a Fighter, which is most important depends on the individual Fighter's combat style. Lastly a high Charisma allows him to maximise his Haggle and Penetrating Strike abilities.
    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d10

    The Fighter
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Bonus Feats|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Bonus Feat|Constitution Control

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    ||Combat Training (Weapon Focus), Haggle

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Bonus Feat|

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    ||Combat Training (Weapon Specialization)

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Bonus Feat|

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    ||Combat King

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Bonus Feat|

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    ||Combat Training (Greater Weapon Focus), Spellbreaking Strike

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Bonus Feat|

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    ||Combat Training (Improved Critical)

    11th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Bonus Feat|Resist Antimagic

    12th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    ||Combat Training (Greater Weapon Specialization)

    13th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Bonus Feat|

    14th|
    +x14/+9/+4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    ||Greater Spellbreaking Strike

    15th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Bonus Feat|

    16th|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    ||Improved Resist Antimagic

    17th|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Bonus Feat|

    18th|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    ||Combat Training (Weapon Supremacy)

    19th|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Bonus Feat|True Resist Antimagic

    20th|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    ||Master At Arms[/table]

    Class Skills
    The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4+Int Modifier) x 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6+Int Modifier.

    Class Features
    All the following are class features of the engineer.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 3rd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums (see Constitution Control below).

    Constitution Control (Ex): When selecting bonus Fighter feats a Fighter may substitute any Stat based prerequisite for their Constituton score or modifier. eg. a Fighter with a Dexterity score of 9 chooses Combat Reflexes as his fifth level Fighter feat and he may use his Constitution score of 15 to satisfy the prerequisites.

    Combat Training (Ex): As a Fighter advances he constantly trains with the tools of his trade, steadily mastering every facet of them.
    - At level 1 he gains Weapon Focus for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 4 he gains Weapon Specialization for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 8 he gains Greater Weapon Focus for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 10 he gains Improved Critical for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 12 he gains Greater Weapon Specialization for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 18 he gains Weapon Supremacy for all weapons that he is proficient with.

    Haggle (Ex): Fighter's are almost entirely dependant upon their equipment for success. At first level a Fighter may make a special check when purchasing equipment. He adds his Fighter level plus his Charisma Modifier to a d20 roll. The DC for the check is ????????????????

    Combat King (Ex): At sixth Level Fighters begin to become the masters of offence. From now on he adds half his fighter level (rounded down) to his attack rolls and damage rolls for weapons that he is proficient with.

    Spellbreaking Strike (Ex/Su): When a Fighter reaches level 8 he begins to understand the how to disrupt the magical defenses of others. Once per day/point of Charisma modifier the Fighter may utisize an effect that mimics the targeted effect of the Dispel Magic spell (use his Fighter level in place of a Caster Level) on any creature he successfully makes a lethal attack against with a weapon that he is proficient with. The Dispel takes effect before damage is dealt, but if the attack misses the Dispel attempt is wasted.

    At 14th level Spellbreaking Strike improves to mimic he effect of Greater Dispel Magic. All other effects remain the same, and the Fighter does not gain any additional uses of this ability.

    Resist Antimagic (Ex): Starting at level 11 the Fighter learns to resist effects that either dispel, supress or remove the magical properties of his equipment. At level 11 he can maintain the properties of the weapons he is currently wielding.

    At level 15, in addition to his weapon the Fighter can also maintain the armour and shield that he is wearing.

    At level 19 the Fighter can maintain all items that he has at once, anything he is carrying is essentially immune to dispelling, anti-magic and disjunction.

    Master At Arms (Ex:) At level 20 the Fighter is the undisputed master of martial combat. From now on he adds his full Fighter level his attack rolls and damage rolls for weapons that he is proficient with. This ability replaces his Combat King ability.

    -------------------------------------------------

    1. Is it any good? How/why?
    2. Need help with Haggle, it's not supposed to look like that.
    3. I know names of stuff are crap, suggestions welcome.
    4. Would Spellbreaking strike be Extraordinary or Suernatural?

    Whadda think?
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2009-06-17 at 09:32 AM.
    Zenithbold-Bard by Lord Raziere | Backer #121 of the Giantitp Kickstarter | My homebrew
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    alchemyprime's Avatar

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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    ...ok, so it is another Fighter fix, but since you're here you may as well take a look anyway.

    This is my first ever attemt at homebrewing, so please be honest, but also please be gentle, lest you crush my fragile spirit
    Okay. I'll be gentle.

    Without further ado I give you:

    The Fighter

    Fighters have the following game statistics.
    Abilities: Constitution is the Fighter's most important statistic, both for high Hit Points and because it gives him increased freedom when selecting feats. Strength and Dexterity are essential to a Fighter, which is most important depends on the individual Fighter's combat style. Lastly a high Charisma allows him to maximise his Haggle and Penetrating Strike abilities.
    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d10

    BIG TABLE I'M CUTTING FROM THE PEACHING

    Class Skills
    The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4+Int Modifier) x 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6+Int Modifier.
    Fixed that for you.

    Class Features
    All the following are class features of the engineer.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
    I can accept that... because its the same.


    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 3rd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums (see Constitution Control below).
    So far he's weaker. But okay. I know he has to get some stuff here.

    Constitution Control (Ex): When selecting bonus Fighter feats a Fighter may substitute any Stat based prerequisite for their Constituton score or modifier. eg. a Fighter with a Dexterity score of 9 chooses Combat Reflexes as his fifth level Fighter feat and he may use his Constitution score of 15 to satisfy the prerequisites.
    I like this. Keep it.


    Combat Training (Ex): As a Fighter advances he constantly trains with the tools of his trade, steadily mastering every facet of them.
    - At level 1 he gains Weapon Focus for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 4 he gains Weapon Specialization for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 8 he gains Greater Weapon Focus for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 10 he gains Improved Critical for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 12 he gains Greater Weapon Specialization for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    - At level 18 he gains Weapon Supremacy for all weapons that he is proficient with.
    No! Bad! *pulls out squirt bottle*

    Make this for either one weapon of choice or for a group. Or, potentially, allow him to choose like "Weapon Focus" at first and then either a new Weapon Focus or Weapin Specialization at 4th. Do not give it across the board.

    Haggle (Ex): Fighter's are almost entirely dependant upon their equipment for success. At first level a Fighter may make a special check when purchasing equipment. He adds his Fighter level plus his Charisma Modifier to a d20 roll. The DC for the check is (20 + Caster Level of the item). For mundane items, use a base of 15.
    ??????????????????????? is a tough number to hit.
    Combat King (Ex): At sixth Level Fighters begin to become the masters of offence. From now on he adds half his fighter level (rounded down) to his attack rolls and damage rolls for weapons that he is proficient with.
    Why? Just.... why? Look, start with like +1 at 6th then increase it by 1 at some interval. And make it with like a specific group of weapons or something. Ie. +1 with axes at 6th, and at Xth it goes up to +2 with axes and +1 with, say, bows. Let the players choose, but by 20th they should have a +4 or 5 in one group, and then other groups going down to +4, +3, +2, and +1. Just saying.

    Spellbreaking Strike (Ex/Su): When a Fighter reaches level 8 he begins to understand the how to disrupt the magical defenses of others. Once per day/point of Charisma modifier the Fighter may utisize an effect that mimics the targeted effect of the Dispel Magic spell (use his Fighter level in place of a Caster Level) on any creature he successfully makes a lethal attack against with a weapon that he is proficient with. The Dispel takes effect before damage is dealt, but if the attack misses the Dispel attempt is wasted.

    At 14th level Spellbreaking Strike improves to mimic he effect of Greater Dispel Magic. All other effects remain the same, and the Fighter does not gain any additional uses of this ability.
    Hm... okay. I kinda like this one.


    Resist Antimagic (Ex): Starting at level 11 the Fighter learns to resist effects that either dispel, supress or remove the magical properties of his equipment. At level 11 he can maintain the properties of the weapons he is currently wielding.

    At level 15, in addition to his weapon the Fighter can also maintain the armour and shield that he is wearing.

    At level 19 the Fighter can maintain all items that he has at once, anything he is carrying is essentially immune to dispelling, anti-magic and disjunction.
    Um... make it a check of somesort each round and that'd be a little better. This seems too tough.

    Master At Arms (Ex:) At level 20 the Fighter is the undisputed master of martial combat. From now on he adds his full Fighter level his attack rolls and damage rolls for weapons that he is proficient with. This ability replaces his Combat King ability.
    But... but... look, Combat King was broken already just from looking at it. Change this one entirely.


    -------------------------------------------------

    1. Is it any good? How/why?
    2. Need help with Haggle, it's not supposed to look like that.
    3. I know names of stuff are crap, suggestions welcome.
    4. Would Spellbreaking strike be Extraordinary or Suernatural?

    Whadda think?

    1. It shows promise. I'll give you that. Some parts are too strong though. Don't go moving your pinky and killing stuff. You're not a dragon (unless you use those rule.)
    2. Did that.
    3. I like the names of stuff. They work. Its hard to name fighter things.
    4. Um... Make it Ex just to make him THAT badass... breaking magic by sheer force of will.
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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    *casts fly/forcecage/invisibility/miscellaneous antifighter spell*


    The fighter does not need more killing power; they are quite capable of striking hard enough already. What the fighter needs is options; more useful abilities, more diverse abilities, more interesting abilities. And this fix? It only increases numbers (or prevents those numbers from being decreased). So no, doesn't work.


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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    *casts fly/forcecage/invisibility/miscellaneous antifighter spell*


    The fighter does not need more killing power; they are quite capable of striking hard enough already. What the fighter needs is options; more useful abilities, more diverse abilities, more interesting abilities. And this fix? It only increases numbers (or prevents those numbers from being decreased). So no, doesn't work.
    Agreed. What you've created is a decent revision of the fighter as a number-crunching warrior, but it lacks options. Here's what you've done:

    -Added huge bonuses to attack rolls and damage. This is largely unnecessary...the fighter is GOOD at hitting things...he just doesn't have the ability to fight opponents with more tricks. A +20 to to all attacks and damage is, quite frankly, both broken and not what is needed to fix the fighter.

    -Added anti-caster abilities. While nice, this seems like it should be additional feats or options from a longer list...some fighters don't specialize in fighting spellcasters.

    -Added Haggle. This is really out of place. It just doesn't even seem like a class ability to me. I'd recommend dropping it completely.

    -Reduced Bonus Feats. This is where the old fighter really got his options. I see no reason to decrease these unless you plan to, somewhere else, give him his options back. Remember: the fighter is the most generic class in the SRD. Therefore, it should be the most customizable in terms of fighting style. After all, it's the crusading knight (the non-divinely gifted one), the cavalier, the samurai, the thug, the dervish, the marshal, the visi-goth, the iajitsu master...the list goes on. Give it the ability to tailor it's fighting style to the players preference, while maintaining balance and versaility. That's a fighter revision.

    That said, not a bad first try. You've got some work to do, but your only big problem was failing to identify the fighter's real problem.

    Edit: Also, on a different note, I dislike Constitution Control. Not all fighters are really tough characters, and sometimes that ability won't even make sense. I'm really tough...so I can use highly intellectual combat maneuvers? It doesn't really fly for me, and seems to strain realism past the point that the fighter (IMHO), should.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2009-06-17 at 09:19 AM.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kobold-Bard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Thanks for reading and posting, it's very appreciated.
    As I said this was my first attempt, and obviously I need to improve. Maybe I'll try again in the future, but until then, I'll leave the inventing to the Zeta Kai's (= homebrewing gods) of the world.
    Zenithbold-Bard by Lord Raziere | Backer #121 of the Giantitp Kickstarter | My homebrew
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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    hmm.... not quite there yet. the crux of the fighter is supposed to be versatility. these abilities pigeon hole him too much into one little slot. (Basically, to fully utilize this class, you need high con, cha, and... whatever else)

    too many abilities that don't really make sense. a fighter needs options, choices, things he can do.

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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Thanks for reading and posting, it's very appreciated.
    Hey, any time.

    As I said this was my first attempt, and obviously I need to improve. Maybe I'll try again in the future, but until then, I'll leave the inventing to the Zeta Kai's (= homebrewing gods) of the world.
    It's your choice, but I feel that this is the wrong attitude to take regarding the critique presented. For a first attempt, this isn't half bad at all. And the Homebrewing Gods of the world didn't begin as homebrewing gods. I'm nowhere near that league, for example, but my first attempts were terrible patchworks of shoddy mechanics and half-formed ideas. You show promise...don't give up. Instead, work on that improvement you say you need: I think you'll get somewhere. Take the criticism given and see what you can do with it. Mayhap you'll produce something wonderful.

    After all, we're not here to discourage...we're here to help. And we're willing to, if you'll give us the chance.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kobold-Bard's Avatar

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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    Hey, any time.



    It's your choice, but I feel that this is the wrong attitude to take regarding the critique presented. For a first attempt, this isn't half bad at all. And the Homebrewing Gods of the world didn't begin as homebrewing gods. I'm nowhere near that league, for example, but my first attempts were terrible patchworks of shoddy mechanics and half-formed ideas. You show promise...don't give up. Instead, work on that improvement you say you need: I think you'll get somewhere. Take the criticism given and see what you can do with it. Mayhap you'll produce something wonderful.

    After all, we're not here to discourage...we're here to help. And we're willing to, if you'll give us the chance.
    Thank you Mr. In_Tonic, I'll take that on board. Sorry if I sounded whiny, it wasn't intended.

    On the topic of improving, one of my main problems I think is my lack of ability to judge game balance (blame years of taking advantage of kindly DM's and reading theoretical optimization threads). Does anyone know of anything online that would help with this?
    Zenithbold-Bard by Lord Raziere | Backer #121 of the Giantitp Kickstarter | My homebrew
    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordJ View Post
    New law: Obey me or you'll be crushed by a MOUNTAIN.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    On the topic of improving, one of my main problems I think is my lack of ability to judge game balance (blame years of taking advantage of kindly DM's and reading theoretical optimization threads). Does anyone know of anything online that would help with this?
    Yes--these forums. That's one of the main reasons most forums have homebrew sections; some people play low-power games, some people play high-power games, and most are somewhere in between, so you can get help balancing your creations by getting opinions from everywhere on that spectrum.

    You really have to just homebrew enough (or study game design enough) until you can eyeball it; there's no one definition or tool for balance that will help. DMing for a while helps quicken the pace at which your judgment improves, but even after DMing for many years I'll still occasionally throw a badly-balanced "what was I thinking?" monster at my players.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Thanks for reading and posting, it's very appreciated.
    As I said this was my first attempt, and obviously I need to improve. Maybe I'll try again in the future, but until then, I'll leave the inventing to the Zeta Kai's (= homebrewing gods) of the world.
    1) I very much appreciate the high praise, but I would be unduly arrogant if I accepted the title of Homebrew God uncontested. I myself have always looked up to the homebrewers who ruled the roost since I was a Pixie. Fax Celestis, the Vorpal Tribble, Krimm Blackleaf, Maerok, & the Demented One have all been very inspiring to me, & I still aspire to be as good as they are one day.

    2) My only advice is this: do not give up, & try everything you can. If you're scared of it, then try it. If you fail at it, try it again. As you can see from my list of projects, I've had some stinkers. I'm not proud of the first couple of feats that I made. But I had some ideas, & the gang here helped me to refine them into projects that I'm truly proud of. If you read the entire FFX-d20 thread, you'll see time & again where other 'brewers helped me make a better 'brew, & I couldn't do it without them. Afro & I still watch each other's back & keep each other honest. I can only hope that you keep at it.

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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    What exactly does Haggle do? I see a check and modifiers for it, bt I don't know what it does.
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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Ya.. do what i did for my fighter varient, slap in 4 + int skill points, give it Balance, Tumble, Heal, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Appraise and you wont even need haggle. >.> You can just use diplomacy/appraise to identify items and haggle people normally.

    Also, for stuff like the dispel on hit? Why not make it a series of feats like the Mageslayer teir of feats from Complete Arcana/etc? Mages cant cast defensively when you threaten them, you can fight past their defenses, etc. Then you can keep the feats at 1, 2, 4, 6, etc as normal, so if they want to specialize in mage-killing, walla, just dump into mage killing feats. Otherwise, it wont hurt their flavor any just to take other feats.
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2009-06-18 at 04:55 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Not another Fighter fix...

    Another thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    1. Is it any good? How/why?
    The best thing to do when homebrewing a fix is for you to analyze why you're doing a fix, and see what others think of the underlying reasons. F'rinstance, most comments you've received are along the lines of "Why the heck did you include X?" and "The fighter doesn't need Y." If you explain (A) what problems you're trying to fix and (B) why you think the fighter needs more damage and Haggle, people can help you with that, rather than saying "Nice job, but we don't think the things you fixed are problems and you didn't fix the problems."
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

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