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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Well, this is a work in progress, but thought I'd post the idea so I could get feedback on it.

    Task Mage


    Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire.
    óJaya Ballard, task mage

    Task mages are spellcasters of the mind that fire can be used to solve any problem, and if the problem isn't solved through its use, then clearly you didn't use enough. Pyromaniacs one and all, they do, oddly enough, seem to be able to solve almost any problem through gratuitous use of flames.

    Requirements:
    ‣Feats: Blistering Spell*, Energy Substitution (Fire).
    ‣Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks.
    ‣Spells: Must know and be able to cast 3 spells with the fire descriptor, at least one of which must be 3rd level or higher.
    ‣Special: Must like fire.

    *This feat is from Player's Handbook II

    HD: d4
    Skillpoints: 2 + int modifier.
    Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Dedication to Flames(+1)|

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Applied Flames, Firelord (5)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Fight Fire with Fire, Enhanced Fire Power (2)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Dedication to Flames (+2), Applied Flames, Firelord (10)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Burning Flames|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Applied Flames, Firelord (15), Enhanced Fire Power (4)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Coolness Under Fire|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Dedication to Flames (+3), Applied Flames, Firelord (20)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Enhanced Fire Power (6), Cant Touch This|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Applied Flames, Firelord (25), Fire Mastery, |+1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]

    Dedication to Flames (Ex): A task mage cannot use damage dealing spells unless they have the fire descriptor. In addition at 1st level, when a task mage would deal fire damage through any means, they deal an additional point of fire damage for each damage dice used. At 4th level, this bonus damage increases to two for each damage dice. At 8th level, to a maximum of 3 damage per damage dice.

    Applied Flames (Su): At every even level a Task Mage may learn a spell or modify one they already know to have the fire descriptor. Doing so changes all damage from the spell to fire damage. This may only be used on spells that normaly deal damage. In addition the task mage may learn an additional spell with the fire descriptor for any class as long as its level is at least 1 lower than their highest spell level.

    Firelord (Ex): At 2nd level, the task mage gains Fire Resistance 5. At 4th level and every two levels thereafter, this resistance increases by an additional 5. In addition, any fire damage dealt by the task mage's ignores this much fire resistance of target's effected by the spell, except his own.

    Fight Fire with Fire (Su): Starting at 3rd level, a task mage's fire is so powerful it can be used to put out lesser fires. If fire made by a task mage would come into contact with fire from another source, have the fires make opposed damage rolls. If the task mage's fire would deal more damage, the other fire is immediately put out. In addition if creatures with the fire immunity are treated taking quarter fire damage (rounded down) instead of having fire immunity.

    Note that if the task mage creates a lasting flame (such as through the use of wall of fire), any flames (includes abilities like a breath weapon that deals fire damage) or spells with the fire descriptor that would pass through it are subjected to this.

    Enhanced Fire Power (Ex): At 3rd level, the damage cap for your spells with the fire descriptor increase by 2 dice for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to your caster level, such as fireball or for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to half your level, such as magic missile. This ability has no effect on spells that don't specifically deal a number of dice of damage equal to your level or half your level, even if the spell's effect is largely dictated by your level. At 6th level and again at 9th level, the damage caps are increased by 2, to a maximum of a +6 increased damage cap.

    Examples: Fireballs would have a cap of 16d6, cone of cold (fire substitute) would have up to 21d6 max damage, etc.

    Fight Everything with Fire (Ex): At 4th level, a task mage becomes more effective at dealing fire damage anything. If a creature's fire resistance is lower than the task mage's fire resistance granted by the Firelord ability, the creature takes extra fire damage equal to the difference (up to a maximum of the task mage's class level) from any source the task mage uses to deal fire damage to it. This does not effect creatures that have fire immunity.

    Burning Flames (Ex): At 5th level, spells of the fire descriptor cast by a task mage that deal +1 damage per caster level instead deal an additional 1d4 points of damage per caster level (the maximum amount stays what it was but is changed to d4s). These dice are subject to the Enhanced Fire Power, but not the Dedication to Flames class abilities.

    Example: Wall of Fire would deal 2d6 points of fire damage +1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20d4) to creatures passing through it. this would result in a max damage of 2d6 + 26d4 + 78 points of fire damage to creatures passing through the wall of fire after accounting for Dedication to Flames and Enhanced Fire Power.

    Coolness Under Fire (Ex): At 7th level, the task mage gains a +4 bonus to concentration checks made when casting a spell with the fire descriptor, and may take 10 on such checks, even when threatened or distracted.

    Cant Touch This (Ex): At 9th level, the task mage's fire spells leave residual flames around him. When the task mage casts a spell with the fire descriptor, the task mage becomes surrounded by flames. These flames deal 1d4 damage per level of the spell cast to all creatures within 5 feet of the task mage and 1d6 damage per level of the spell cast to all creatures that striking the task mage with its body or a handheld weapon (Creatures wielding weapons with exceptional reach are not subject to this damage if they attack you). In addition, as long as these flames persist, the task mage only takes half cold damage. These flames last for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell cast. Multiple instances of this do not stack, only the highest one applies.

    Fire Mastery (Ex): At 10th level, the task mage masters fire itself, being able to bypass all fire resistance and fire immunity a target may have against any fire damage he deals. Creatures with fire vulnerability take double damage instead of an additional half damage. In addition, the task mage gains the fire subtype, including the immunity to fire and a vulnerability to cold it grants. Also, when the task mage gains a level, regardless of what class they take, they gain Applied Flames.

    Well, likely needs some work, but let me know what you think.

    Owrtho
    Last edited by Owrtho; 2010-05-18 at 08:51 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Some of my ideas;

    Prerequisites;
    Feats: Endurance, Energy Substitution (Fire).
    Skills: Intimidate 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
    Spells: Must know and be able to cast a 3rd level or higher spell with the fire descriptor.

    Hit Dice: d6
    Saves: Good Will, Bad Fort, Bad Ref.
    Skills: 2 + Int Bonus, basic sorcerer skills for class skills, and replace Bluff with Intimidate.
    Base Attack Bonus: 3/4, as rogue.

    Dedication to Flames (Ex): At 1st level, when a task mage uses a spell with the fire descriptor that deals hit point damage, the spell deals an additional point of fire damage for each damage dice the spell has. At 4th level, this bonus damage increases to two for each damage dice. At 8th level, to a maximum of 3 damage per damage dice.

    Firelord (Ex): At 2nd level, the task mage gains Fire Resistance 5. At 4th level and every two levels thereafter, this resistance increases by an additional 5. In addition, the task mage's spells with the fire descriptor ignores this much fire resistance of target's effected by the spell, except his own.

    Enhanced Fire Power (Ex): At 3rd level, the damage cap for your spells with the fire descriptor increase by 2 dice for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to your caster level, such as fireball or for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to half your level, such as searing light. This ability has no effect on spells that don't specifically deal a number of dice of damage equal to your level or half your level, even if the spell's effect is largely dictated by your level. At 6th level and again at 9th level, the damage caps are increased by 2, to a maximum of a +6 increased damage cap.

    Examples: Fireballs would have a cap of 16d6, cone of cold (fire substitute) would have up to 21d6 max damage, etc.

    Shape Fire (Ex): At 5th level, the task mage gains the benefits of the Shape Spell feat to all his spells with the fire descriptor. This works exactly like the feat, except it does not modify the spell level of the effected spells.

    Coolness Under Fire (Ex): At 7th level, the task mage gains a +4 bonus to concentration checks made when casting a spell with the fire descriptor, and may take 10 on such checks, even when threatened or distracted.

    Cant Touch This (Ex): At 9th level, the task mage taps into the very primal and chaotic nature of flame to its finest, taking on the flames deadly dance and wispy movements when spellcasting. When casting a spell with the fire descriptor, the task mage gains a dodge bonus to armor class and a bonus to reflex saving throws for a number of rounds both equal to the level of the spell cast.

    Fire Mastery (Ex): At 10th level, the task mage masters fire itself, being able to bypass all fire resistance and fire immunity a target may have against any spell he casts with the fire descriptor. In addition, the task mage gains the fire subtype, including the immunity to fire and a vulnerability to cold it grants.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Toss out the fire-only spells able to cast ; just make all the benefits only effect fire spells. They should be able to cast what they have available, even if its sucky.

    Possibility - you could increase their base attack bonus to 3/4 (rogue level) for touch attacks and range touch attacks with stuff like Scorching Ray, etc, and give them something like d6 hit dice. I noticed you didnt give it HD... -pokes-

    Also, instead of good reflex saves, notice my idea for Cant Touch This.

    Last, but not least - if your going to quote the greatest fire mage in exsistance, at least use HER picture. >.> http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/133/week90py9.jpg
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2009-06-17 at 06:38 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Prerequisites;
    Feats: Endurance, Energy Substitution (Fire).
    Skills: Intimidate 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
    Spells: Must know and be able to cast a 3rd level or higher spell with the fire descriptor.
    Those prerequisites look better than what I had. I was having trouble thinking of any, though I still think I'll require knowing a minnimum number of fire spells (I'll change it to three thoguh I think).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Hit Dice: d6
    Saves: Good Will, Bad Fort, Bad Ref.
    Skills: 2 + Int Bonus, basic sorcerer skills for class skills, and replace Bluff with Intimidate.
    Base Attack Bonus: 3/4, as rogue.
    These seem to be good suggestions as well. I realized once I saw there was a reply I forgot HD and skills...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Dedication to Flames (Ex): At 1st level, when a task mage uses a spell with the fire descriptor that deals hit point damage, the spell deals an additional point of fire damage for each damage dice the spell has. At 4th level, this bonus damage increases to two for each damage dice. At 8th level, to a maximum of 3 damage per damage dice.
    That damage bonus seems to work better than what I had. I think I'll change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Firelord (Ex): At 2nd level, the task mage gains Fire Resistance 5. At 4th level and every two levels thereafter, this resistance increases by an additional 5. In addition, the task mage's spells with the fire descriptor ignores this much fire resistance of target's effected by the spell, except his own.
    I had also been planning to add some kind of fire resistance but couldn't figure out where to put it in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Enhanced Fire Power (Ex): At 3rd level, all caps of all spells the task mage uses with the fire descriptor are increased by 2 if they advance by one dice per two levels, or if they advance by one dice per level. If they do not do direct hit point damage, or advanced damage dice in these ways, this ability has no effect on that particular spell. At 6th level, this bonus damage dice cap increases to 4, and again at 9th level to a max of 6.

    Examples: Fireballs would have a cap of 16d6 for a 10th level task mage. A scorching ray would get more rays. A burning hands would do up to 11d4 damage. Firebolts would get more missiles, etc.
    I like this idea as well, I'd not concidered increasing possible damage amounts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Shape Fire (Ex): At 5th level, the task mage gains the benefits of the Shape Spell feat to all his spells with the fire descriptor. This works exactly like the feat, except it does not modify the spell level of the effected spells.
    I... have no idea what the shape spell feat does or where to find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Coolness Under Fire (Ex): At 7th level, the task mage gains a +4 bonus to concentration checks made when casting a spell with the fire descriptor, and may take 10 on such checks, even when threatened or distracted.
    I think I'll add this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Cant Touch This (Ex): At 9th level, the task mage taps into the very primal and chaotic nature of flame to its finest, taking on the flames deadly dance and wispy movements when spellcasting. When casting a spell with the fire descriptor, the task mage gains a dodge bonus to armor class and a bonus to reflex saving throws for a number of rounds both equal to the level of the spell cast.
    I had been looking for a good nineth level ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Fire Mastery (Ex): At 10th level, the task mage masters fire itself, being able to bypass all fire resistance and fire immunity a target may have against any spell he casts with the fire descriptor. In addition, the task mage gains the fire subtype, including the immunity to fire and a vulnerability to cold it grants.
    That makes a good capstone I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Toss out the fire-only spells able to cast ; just make all the benefits only effect fire spells. They should be able to cast what they have available, even if its sucky.
    Well, the fire only spells is about flavor. In general, being a task mage means that you believe any problem can be solved with fire, and will attempt to solve (generaly) all problems you believe can be solved with fire with fire. However, to make up for only being able to use spells with the fire description I added the applied fire ability which lets them make non fire spells fire spells. Also, I'd note that the benefits effect all fire damage delt by the task mage (not just spells).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Possibility - you could increase their base attack bonus to 3/4 (rogue level) for touch attacks and range touch attacks with stuff like Scorching Ray, etc, and give them something like d6 hit dice. I noticed you didnt give it HD... -pokes-
    I think I'll do that.

    Thank you for the suggestions.

    Owrtho
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    Dedication to Flames (Ex): A task mage can only use spells with the fire descriptor. In addition the damage of all spells with the fire descriptor is increased by the task mage's class level, this increases to twice their class level at level 5.
    Hm, I don't really like this that limits a spellcaster too severly, like WAY too severly.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Dedication to Flames (Ex): At 1st level, when a task mage uses a spell with the fire descriptor that deals hit point damage, the spell deals an additional point of fire damage for each damage dice the spell has. At 4th level, this bonus damage increases to two for each damage dice. At 8th level, to a maximum of 3 damage per damage dice.
    Whew, much better
    Last edited by The Blackbird; 2009-06-17 at 06:54 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Made most of the suggested changes. Didn't want to get rid of the limit on what spells they could use for flavor reasons, but changed it to only limit damage dealing spells. Reworded some things as well so as to effect all side damage dealt by the task mage rather than just their spells (mainly so that spell like or supernatural abilities wouldn't be left out).

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Needs an additional capstone that every level of an arcane casting class that you take after completeing this class you get an application of "Applied Flames" because otherwise you are going to run out of spells to learn pretty quick after exiting this class I should think.
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    I do like this a lot but it seems a bit weak.

    First of all, the entry requirements are especially annoying, since you're spending two nearly useless feats AND you need ranks in Intimidate, which is quite hard to get for wizards and sorcerers. Why Endurance anyway? The special requirement, while flavorsome, doesn't really seem necessary since anyone taking the class would probably already like fire anyway. I mean, it's somewhat like making a requirement for becoming a wizard as "must like magic." Also, this seems more fitting to be restricted to arcane spellcasters only.

    Secondly, The loss of 3 spell levels is especially painful since direct damage is usually not as powerful as save or dies anyway. 3 spell levels take away 9th level spells from Sorcerers, which drastically cuts their power level late game, making it hard to want to take the class. I'd make it only lose 2 caster levels at most if I were you, possibly even only 1.

    Thirdly, Applied Flames seems a little clunky, for lack of a better term. It seems to encourage you wait to take the class or else you won't be able to use it on the higher level spells. And the ability itself seems weak or just weird. You can already use Energy Substitution (Fire), so there's not much point in using it on a direct damage spell. As for non-damaging spells, it's entirely useless on offensive ones (10 damage? Really?) and not much better on defensive. The wording is a bit ambiguous as well in what it actually does (Duration? Does it work in an area? What does "touch the target" mean?) I would revise it to... actually, I have no idea what. I don't see much point at all in the ability to be honest.

    Fourthly, since the class is taking away so much spellcasting, it should offer something more to compensate. How about giving you one spell with the [Fire] descriptor of your choice for each spell level when you gain access to it? That would help sorcerers quite a bit with their spell selections. Also you could do something like wizard specialization where you get more spell slots per day but you can only put [Fire] spells in those slots.

    Fifthly, for Can't Touch This, does the effects stack? If so, that could get pretty broken as you keep casting high level fire spells and become essentially invincible. If not, which effect takes precedence? Do all effects remain on you but only the highest one counts?

    Finally, Fight Fire with Fire... this is a very situational effect at best. I can't think of many fire spells that actually stay on the field for long periods of time.

    So overall, cool class, but it's too much of a one-trick pony that takes away more than it gives. You should work on removing some of the costs of the class while enhancing its benefits.
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    There is a feat in Sandstorm which lets fire spells overcome fire resistance.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    First of all, the entry requirements are especially annoying, since you're spending two nearly useless feats AND you need ranks in Intimidate, which is quite hard to get for wizards and sorcerers. Why Endurance anyway? The special requirement, while flavorsome, doesn't really seem necessary since anyone taking the class would probably already like fire anyway. I mean, it's somewhat like making a requirement for becoming a wizard as "must like magic." Also, this seems more fitting to be restricted to arcane spellcasters only.
    As far as the endurance is concerned, thats a good point. I'll likely remove that. Also now that i look at it I'm not sure where energy substitution is from or what it does (though I assume it changes an energy type to the chosen one). The special requirement is somewhat of a joke one, as a character taking this class clearly does like fire, else they wouldn't take it. The intimidation itsn't much of an issue. As a non-class skill it just requires 2 skill point instead of 1, and can only be raised to a max of half your class skills max rank.

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Secondly, The loss of 3 spell levels is especially painful since direct damage is usually not as powerful as save or dies anyway. 3 spell levels take away 9th level spells from Sorcerers, which drastically cuts their power level late game, making it hard to want to take the class. I'd make it only lose 2 caster levels at most if I were you, possibly even only 1.
    Will likely change that. I'd forgotten that sorcerers would lose 9th level from that. Will probably make it so you only loose spells on the first level.

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Thirdly, Applied Flames seems a little clunky, for lack of a better term. It seems to encourage you wait to take the class or else you won't be able to use it on the higher level spells. And the ability itself seems weak or just weird. You can already use Energy Substitution (Fire), so there's not much point in using it on a direct damage spell. As for non-damaging spells, it's entirely useless on offensive ones (10 damage? Really?) and not much better on defensive. The wording is a bit ambiguous as well in what it actually does (Duration? Does it work in an area? What does "touch the target" mean?) I would revise it to... actually, I have no idea what. I don't see much point at all in the ability to be honest.
    I'll likely change it to just being used for damaging spells. That should simplify it some.

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Fourthly, since the class is taking away so much spellcasting, it should offer something more to compensate. How about giving you one spell with the [Fire] descriptor of your choice for each spell level when you gain access to it? That would help sorcerers quite a bit with their spell selections. Also you could do something like wizard specialization where you get more spell slots per day but you can only put [Fire] spells in those slots.
    Might do this as well, I'll have to think on it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Fifthly, for Can't Touch This, does the effects stack? If so, that could get pretty broken as you keep casting high level fire spells and become essentially invincible. If not, which effect takes precedence? Do all effects remain on you but only the highest one counts?
    This doesn't stack, the highest one would count.

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Finally, Fight Fire with Fire... this is a very situational effect at best. I can't think of many fire spells that actually stay on the field for long periods of time.
    First, I'll note that this effects any fire. Not just magical fire. Someone set the barn on fire? A fireball will take care of that (warning may set barn on fire after putting out fire, use of non splash spell is advised). Also you overlook that it applies to fire spells that you cast which stay on the field as well. If you cast a wall of fire, and they try shooting a fire spell through it (and your wall of fire does better on the opposed damage check), they're fire spell will be put out. The same would be true of fire shield (which could be used to protect against fire damage if your a task mage).

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    So overall, cool class, but it's too much of a one-trick pony that takes away more than it gives. You should work on removing some of the costs of the class while enhancing its benefits.
    Glad to hear you like it. And it is sorta supposed to be a one trick pony. The response of a member of this class to any problem that confronts them would most likely be Kill it with Fire.

    Owrtho
    Last edited by Owrtho; 2009-06-17 at 09:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    As far as the endurance is concerned, thats a good point. I'll likely remove that. Also now that i look at it I'm not sure where energy substitution is from or what it does (though I assume it changes an energy type to the chosen one). The special requirement is somewhat of a joke one, as a character taking this class clearly does like fire, else they wouldn't take it. The intimidation itsn't much of an issue. As a non-class skill it just requires 2 skill point instead of 1, and can only be raised to a max of half your class skills max rank.
    Energy Substitution is from Complete Arcane; it just makes damaging spells change to the specific type and descriptor. By itself it actually does make sense since you can use it to change damaging spells to fire for the special abilities provided by this class. Intimidate just doesn't seem to match the class that much; it doesn't seem to be much of a social class and it doesn't seem inherently intimidating. Why not Knowledge (Arcana) or even Speak Language (Ignan)? Oh well, it's your choice either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    I'll likely change it to just being used for damaging spells. That should simplify it some.
    You'll still have the problem of the fact that if you take the class as soon as you can, after it ends, you won't be able to use it on your most powerful spells. Just having Energy Substitution solves the problem for damage spells anyway. If you really want to keep it, how about making it apply to specific descriptors of direct damage spells (eg Cold, Sonic, Force, Chaos, Water, etc) and replace them with [Fire]. This way, if you later take a 9th level spell cold spell, you can still use it as a fire spell if you took Applied Flames (Cold) previously. All of this is assuming you're removing Energy Substitution from the requirements though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    First, I'll note that this effects any fire. Not just magical fire. Someone set the barn on fire? A fireball will take care of that (warning may set barn on fire after putting out fire, use of non splash spell is advised). Also you overlook that it applies to fire spells that you cast which stay on the field as well. If you cast a wall of fire, and they try shooting a fire spell through it (and your wall of fire does better on the opposed damage check), they're fire spell will be put out. The same would be true of fire shield (which could be used to protect against fire damage if your a task mage).
    Still very situational but I guess it has its uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    Glad to hear you like it. And it is sorta supposed to be a one trick pony. The response of a member of this class to any problem that confronts them would most likely be Kill it with Fire.
    I understand that, but I said one trick pony that takes away too much. Fix those problems, and it'll be fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Energy Substitution is from Complete Arcane; it just makes damaging spells change to the specific type and descriptor. By itself it actually does make sense since you can use it to change damaging spells to fire for the special abilities provided by this class. Intimidate just doesn't seem to match the class that much; it doesn't seem to be much of a social class and it doesn't seem inherently intimidating. Why not Knowledge (Arcana) or even Speak Language (Ignan)? Oh well, it's your choice either way.
    That helps, I think I will keep energy substitution for the class though. That is a good point with intimidate. I might just drop it as it adds little. I'd add knowledge (Arcana), except that I want to keep this open to other casting classes. Originaly I had been planning to make this class oppen to any characters that could create fire, but realized that would be too dificult to pull off (atleast without making two different versions of it one for casters and one for noncasters).

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    You'll still have the problem of the fact that if you take the class as soon as you can, after it ends, you won't be able to use it on your most powerful spells. Just having Energy Substitution solves the problem for damage spells anyway. If you really want to keep it, how about making it apply to specific descriptors of direct damage spells (eg Cold, Sonic, Force, Chaos, Water, etc) and replace them with [Fire]. This way, if you later take a 9th level spell cold spell, you can still use it as a fire spell if you took Applied Flames (Cold) previously. All of this is assuming you're removing Energy Substitution from the requirements though.
    Given that, I'll likely make it so that by reaching level 10, you continue to gain Applied Fire even when taking levels in other classes (as suggested by DracoDei). As for the idea of changing specific descriptors, while I might be tempted, I'm going to leave in the Energy Substitution, and that wouldn't work for spells that deal damage but lack a descriptor (which this will likely be used primarily for). Also as for the issue of already having Energy Substitution, while it is useful for casters that prepare spells in advance, spontaneous casters would have the casting time of their spells increased by using it.


    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    I understand that, but I said one trick pony that takes away too much. Fix those problems, and it'll be fine.
    Well, I'm working on doing that, so i hope the problems will be fixed soon. ;)

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    What is the duration on Can't Touch This?

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    I noticed that certain spells (such as Wall of Fire, and Fire Shield), wouldn't benefit much from this class due to their damage being +1 point per claster level, and as such I made the burning flames ability gained at level 5 which will change the +1 point per caster level into +1d4 per caster level. Not sure if this is balanced or not. But figured I'd post it and see.

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post

    Dedication to Flames (Ex): A task mage can only use damage dealing spells with the fire descriptor.
    Ironically, this just encourages anyone taking this prc to take snowcasting, eschew materials and energy substitution: fire. There, now all your spells have the [fire] descriptor.

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    I used to have a character which would have loved this prestige class. I've got a few suggestions though:

    I'm wondering how Cant Touch This fits into this class. Seems out of place. Same with Coolness Under Fire, to a lesser extent (it seems to fit more just because of the pun).

    Applied Flames and Fire Mastery both seem redundant, when you can duplicate most of their effects with your two prerequisite feats (Energy Substitution and Searing Spell, respectively).

    Fight Fire with Fire is very cool and I'm very fond of the mechanics, but I'm just not sure that it would ever come into play. Fireballs, and most fire spells, don't actually create any lasting fire. Hmm... perhaps homebrew a metamagic feat, spell, or class feature which creates lasting fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by quick_comment View Post
    Ironically, this just encourages anyone taking this prc to take snowcasting, eschew materials and energy substitution: fire. There, now all your spells have the [fire] descriptor.
    Well, that would be a good thing with how the class is themed. Based on the theme they would even do things like use wall of ice and use energy substitution (fire) to make a solid wall of fire (or a bridge of fire) that would actually be a solid instead of like wall of fire which you can just jump through (even if it causes damage).

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    I'm wondering how Cant Touch This fits into this class. Seems out of place. Same with Coolness Under Fire, to a lesser extent (it seems to fit more just because of the pun).
    Well, coolness under fire make is so they are harder to stop when casting fire spells. Can't touch this is due to the general lack of defensive ability among fire spells. Though just now I got the idea of making it instead cause them to get a shell of flame that acts like the fire shield spell for a number of rounds equal to the to the cast spells level. (in fact I'm going to make that change now).

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    Applied Flames and Fire Mastery both seem redundant, when you can duplicate most of their effects with your two prerequisite feats (Energy Substitution and Searing Spell, respectively).
    Well firstly, Energy Substitution can only be applied to spells that already have a energy descriptor, Applied Flames doesn't have that limit. Also it is permanent for the chosen spells (so you don't need to add the meta magic which for spontaneous casters makes it take longer to cast). Fire Mastery, not being a meta magic, does not increase the spell level it also ignores fire immunity completely (instead of making it half the damage). Also it has a few other effects (like giving the fire subtype).

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Corm View Post
    Fight Fire with Fire is very cool and I'm very fond of the mechanics, but I'm just not sure that it would ever come into play. Fireballs, and most fire spells, don't actually create any lasting fire. Hmm... perhaps homebrew a metamagic feat, spell, or class feature which creates lasting fire?
    Well, like i said, it can be used to on non magic fires. Also (I should likely specify this), you can use it in reverse as well. If you have a flame you made in the way, it can put out fires going through it. For example if you cast a wall of fire, any fire spells being cast from one side to the other (by others) would be subjected to fight fire with fire. As would abilities like a dragons Breath Weapon (if it is of the fire type), and fire arrows could be put out going through it.

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    I should point out that Task Mages aren't actually fire specialists, they're more like mages for hire: mercenaries. That said, mercenaries kill things, and fire is the king of killing things.

    The problem with Fire Mastery as a capstone is that the class needs it at first level in order to function: too many creatures have resistance or immunity to fire to be able to get by without a way to bypass it. The metamagic searing spell does this for +1 level, and I see you have included it as a prerequisite, but you're effectively penalizing all their spells by a level if they want to be prepared. I'd remove the adjustment at 1st level, and make the Fight Fire With Fire ability bypass fire subtype instead of putting out fires, since such an awesome name needs an awesome ability. I'd also throw in a Fight Everything With Fire ability somewhere, maybe use that for Enhanced Fire Power.

    I'm pretty sure we're getting towards ridiculous damage potential without effort using this class, but I'm sure it doesn't compare to a properly cheesed out damage caster, so it falls under the "use responsibly" clause, fine by me.

    Oh, and you should throw in one of those Advanced Learning dealies for grabbing non-Sor/Wiz fire spells, just for good measure.
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I should point out that Task Mages aren't actually fire specialists, they're more like mages for hire: mercenaries. That said, mercenaries kill things, and fire is the king of killing things.
    Well, that likely depends on the individual, but is likely true in most cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    The problem with Fire Mastery as a capstone is that the class needs it at first level in order to function: too many creatures have resistance or immunity to fire to be able to get by without a way to bypass it. The metamagic searing spell does this for +1 level, and I see you have included it as a prerequisite, but you're effectively penalizing all their spells by a level if they want to be prepared. I'd remove the adjustment at 1st level, and make the Fight Fire With Fire ability bypass fire subtype instead of putting out fires, since such an awesome name needs an awesome ability. I'd also throw in a Fight Everything With Fire ability somewhere, maybe use that for Enhanced Fire Power.
    Well, they gain the ability to reduce damage resistance at level 2 (and it increases the reduction every even level), but I should likely add in a thing for fire immunity (that changed it to half damage with maybe 30 fire resistance. Used to have something like that at level 4 I think it was). I think that I'll add to the fight fire with fire ability that it bypasses the fire immunity of the fire subtype.

    I... I can't... I can't believe I didn't realize it. I must immediatly remedy the lack of an ability named Fight Everything With Fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I'm pretty sure we're getting towards ridiculous damage potential without effort using this class, but I'm sure it doesn't compare to a properly cheesed out damage caster, so it falls under the "use responsibly" clause, fine by me.
    Its possible (or rather quite likely).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Oh, and you should throw in one of those Advanced Learning dealies for grabbing non-Sor/Wiz fire spells, just for good measure.
    I think I'll add that into the Applied Flames abillity.

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    I hadn't noticed the resistance bypass you had in Firelord, or I wouldn't have mentioned it actually. The various bypass and reductions get a little clunky, but each on it's own is pretty cool.

    Fight Everything With Fire is so powerful is crosses the line from broken to awesome. While too many creatures at high levels have resistance to fire, leveled NPCs and those few that don't now get toasted for 10-25+ change by a simple cantrip.

    However, the class is now too awesome. Between empowering through +x per die, empowering by increasing dice cap, empowering by adding extra damage to non-resistant creatures (admittedly awesome), and topping it off by doubling everything for +1 level, it's too much. I'd take of the +x per die and knock the capstone down to +50% on random variables. Still ridiculous, but not ridiculously so.

    Also, a question: while they can only personally cast fire spells of the fire variety, can they still use non-fire items?
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I hadn't noticed the resistance bypass you had in Firelord, or I wouldn't have mentioned it actually. The various bypass and reductions get a little clunky, but each on it's own is pretty cool.
    Not quite sure how to fix that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Fight Everything With Fire is so powerful is crosses the line from broken to awesome. While too many creatures at high levels have resistance to fire, leveled NPCs and those few that don't now get toasted for 10-25+ change by a simple cantrip.
    Well, the idea is to kill it with fire. Would it perhaps be better if I capped the damage this could cause at one's class level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    However, the class is now too awesome. Between empowering through +x per die, empowering by increasing dice cap, empowering by adding extra damage to non-resistant creatures (admittedly awesome), and topping it off by doubling everything for +1 level, it's too much. I'd take of the +x per die and knock the capstone down to +50% on random variables. Still ridiculous, but not ridiculously so.
    I'll think it over and see what the reaction is I think before I change it too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Also, a question: while they can only personally cast fire spells of the fire variety, can they still use non-fire items?
    Well, first I'd note the restriction is only on damage dealing spells. That aside, I'd say no, as the reason behind the restriction is because the task mage just refuses to other methods than fire to take care of things (given the class abilities, I'd say the boosts to fire make up for the lack of not fire).

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    I'm not sure if I asked my last question properly, so I'll rephrase it: can the Task Mage cast anything other than damage dealing fire spells (I'm currently reading it as no)? If he can't, can he still use items (wands, scrolls, staffs) of non-damage dealing spells?

    If it looses all other spells then ridiculous damage is the only way left to make up for it, though I'd still try and stop at some point. If it's just a restriction on damage types to fire, then it's dealing too much damage.

    For clunkiness, I think Firelord is about as good as it's going to get. I'd have Fight Everything With Fire change to "he now deals an extra 5 damage per 2 levels from his Firelord ability, instead of only ignoring resistance", though that would make it more powerful when combined with the current double damage capstone. For Fight Fire With Fire, the main thing is "fire subtype takes half damage and has resistance 40", cause then you have to check subtype->half damage->40 resistance->subtract Firelord-> subtract effective resistance from half original damage. It's not hard, but it's a long string. I don't see what makes fire subtype so much more special than immunity myself, so I'd drop the extra resistance and just make it automatic half damage against immunity and subtype, and full damage with searing spell.

    I also wonder if you meant to have the dice cap increase be the same number of dice for both /level and /2 levels spells, or be equivalent (so max 6 dice for /levels and 3 dice for /2 levels). I'm also pretty sure searing light isn't a fire spell.
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I'm not sure if I asked my last question properly, so I'll rephrase it: can the Task Mage cast anything other than damage dealing fire spells (I'm currently reading it as no)? If he can't, can he still use items (wands, scrolls, staffs) of non-damage dealing spells?

    If it looses all other spells then ridiculous damage is the only way left to make up for it, though I'd still try and stop at some point. If it's just a restriction on damage types to fire, then it's dealing too much damage.
    Hadn't noticed that it was worded in a misleading manner. As such I've fixed it. They are able to cast non damage dealing spells of any type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    For clunkiness, I think Firelord is about as good as it's going to get. I'd have Fight Everything With Fire change to "he now deals an extra 5 damage per 2 levels from his Firelord ability, instead of only ignoring resistance", though that would make it more powerful when combined with the current double damage capstone. For Fight Fire With Fire, the main thing is "fire subtype takes half damage and has resistance 40", cause then you have to check subtype->half damage->40 resistance->subtract Firelord-> subtract effective resistance from half original damage. It's not hard, but it's a long string. I don't see what makes fire subtype so much more special than immunity myself, so I'd drop the extra resistance and just make it automatic half damage against immunity and subtype, and full damage with searing spell.
    I might try doing that. But I think I'll wait a little bit in this case. I've been up awhile so all this tricky stuff with wording might not be the best thing for me to try to work on at the moment. That said, if someone can figure out how to take care of the issue well I might do that (with the whole thing typed out). Otherwise I'll wait till later today when I'm more rested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    I also wonder if you meant to have the dice cap increase be the same number of dice for both /level and /2 levels spells, or be equivalent (so max 6 dice for /levels and 3 dice for /2 levels). I'm also pretty sure searing light isn't a fire spell.
    It is meant to be the same. And as it turns out your right, searing light isn't a fire spell (I'm not the one who wrote that up). But as I couldn't find any fire spells that increased damage die by 1 per 2 levels, I'll just leave it for now (and you can get it anyways with the applied flames ability).

    Also, as you seem to like this fire based prc, perhaps you be interested in taking a look at this (possibly) fire themed prc I made where you can actually turn into a fireball (its the first PRC after the base class).

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    It is meant to be the same. And as it turns out your right, searing light isn't a fire spell (I'm not the one who wrote that up). But as I couldn't find any fire spells that increased damage die by 1 per 2 levels, I'll just leave it for now (and you can get it anyways with the applied flames ability).
    Using an Applied Flames-modified Magic Missile as the example might work better.

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    I wonder about the 3/4 BAB and d6 HD on a full caster PRC (well, practically full caster. 9/10 is close enough to full) Considering all you get anyways, i don't see a particular reason that they're necessarily any tougher than their other magely brethren or more battle-trained, either. If you're going all Pathfindery with this, then the HD matches up but the BAB is still out there. It's a fully powered arcane PRC, he's got no reason to be any less glass cannon then his Wizard and Sorcerer buddies (probably Wujens as well, given I could definitely see Fire Wujens gathering to get into this PRC by the drove).

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I wonder about the 3/4 BAB and d6 HD on a full caster PRC (well, practically full caster. 9/10 is close enough to full) Considering all you get anyways, i don't see a particular reason that they're necessarily any tougher than their other magely brethren or more battle-trained, either. If you're going all Pathfindery with this, then the HD matches up but the BAB is still out there. It's a fully powered arcane PRC, he's got no reason to be any less glass cannon then his Wizard and Sorcerer buddies (probably Wujens as well, given I could definitely see Fire Wujens gathering to get into this PRC by the drove).
    Actually I'd forgotten that d4 were used for HD. Also I rather agree about the half BAB (thats what I'd originally had it as).

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    To analyze the class a bit with delayed last fireball with Arcane Thesis:

    Searing Spell, Empower (Level 8): 26d6 x 2 + 26d6 x .5 + 26 x 3 = 65d6 + 78 = 143 min, 305 average, 468 max

    Searing Spell, Empower, Ocular (level 9, 1/day): 286 min, 610 average, 936 max

    Irresistable, but a Reflex save still cuts it in half. So, assuming failed saves, on average you 1-shot a balor, and could possibly 1-shot a CR 20 red dragon. At minimum, you will probably be killing most non-monsters. This is an area effect so it could end the encounter straight away. The enemy gets 1 extra round to live if he makes his save, unless you use your ocular version. If he has Evasion, you do have spells which target Fortitude saves. Basically the class turns your damage spells into save-and-have-Evasion-and-Mettle-or-dies. Hey, there's spells out there that do this with less chance for survival, so take it for what you will.

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Hmm, I'd forgoten about empower spell. I've gone and made using searing flames after getting Fire Mastery increase the spell level by 2 instead of 1. Hopefully that will make it somewhat less powerful.

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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    What's the point of immunity if everyone and his brother are making some feat or prestige class that can bypass it?
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    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by togapika View Post
    What's the point of immunity if everyone and his brother are making some feat or prestige class that can bypass it?
    To make you waste feats/levels.
    Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
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    Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Kill it with Fire (3.5 PRC)

    Because too many things that have no business being immune to fire, are.
    Attention Imgur Users! Imgur apparently doesn't like hosting images anymore and only works in certain places or for people who already have the image cached: No one can see your avatars or images!
    Also Photobucket users? Don't know if it's a bandwidth or region lock or something, but I'm seeing some avatars blurred out with a watermark that looks like the photobucket icon.
    And Tinypic went down a while back, seeing plenty of old avatars showing their downed image.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    sheer awesomeness

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