[4e] Need an easy PC for a newbie player

[Burley]

I've got a new player joining my group tonight, and he's never played. I think he'll catch on quick, given his background in RP(video)G. When I asked him what he wanted, he said he likes to dual wield, he likes swords, he likes sword magic, and he hates big armor.
I though either Swordmage (which would make dual wielding useless), or Ranger with a multiclass in...something.
Party level is 5. Help?

[Leon]

Don't know whats beyond level 3 (as that's what the demo stops at)
But i'd say go with Swordmage with the Ranger Multi feat and let it flow (i recall that the defensive type needs a hand free for its bonus but i think a Assault type should be fine with Dual weapons)

[Scorched Jawa]

You could just stick with TWF Ranger and reflavor/fluff his powers to be magical instead of just martial.

[The_Pyre]

Well, at the moment it looks like you'll have to go either Swordmage or Ranger. I don't recall there being any classes with sword-related magic that has anything to do with dual-wielding, so you might have to make him choose. I recommend the ranger, though, as strikers are generally more fun to play for new players than defenders.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Go with the above suggestion. With a little refluffing, it will indeed go a long way.

[Totally Guy]

Ranger with a Warlock multiclass. Longsword and Pact Blade. Strength and Con... oh, actually strength and con would be good for armour too... Power swap an encounter power just for the added variety.

He could be a warrior that has but one spell lodged in his head. Like if Rincewind was physically powerful and dashing. Well he's dashing but usually dashing away from danger.

Edit: Optimal Strength Con race: Goliath. But he's free to pick whatever else.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay.... you can't really combine dual wielding with sword magic in 4E, and ranger/swordmage is not a very good MC combination.

Rangers are very easy to play but potentially get boring rather quick for the same reason (because most of your powers boil down to "pick a target, deal a bunch of damage, next"). If he's catching on quick, the swordmage offers much more different options, and has sword magic. It doesn't dual wield though, although you can pretend that it does.

Just for an alternative option - fighters can dual wield and have some diverse options available. Just no real magic.

[Totally Guy]

Just for an alternative option - fighters can dual wield and have some diverse options available. Just no real magic.

Or a non optimal ritual caster.

[Tengu_temp]

Hr could try a Genasi hybrid Ranger/Swordmage - with 19 (16 base +2 race +1 from levels) in both Int and Str that combo should be pretty good and fun to play.

Although hybrid classes might be too complex for a newbie, and they are Dragon content. Perhaps he could consider Ranger multiclassed into Invoker? Multiclassing into Warlock, as suggested before, could be good too, but most Rangers have higher Wis than Con.

Apart from the lack of dual-wielding, however, Swordmage seems to be the class for this guy.

[Burley]

Okay.... you can't really combine dual wielding with sword magic in 4E, and ranger/swordmage is not a very good MC combination.

Rangers are very easy to play but potentially get boring rather quick for the same reason (because most of your powers boil down to "pick a target, deal a bunch of damage, next"). If he's catching on quick, the swordmage offers much more different options, and has sword magic. It doesn't dual wield though, although you can pretend that it does.

Just for an alternative option - fighters can dual wield and have some diverse options available. Just no real magic.

Well, he's already stated that he doesn't want to wear anything higher than leather armor. A fighter in leather is... different from useful?
He has a concept that he's shooting for, and I have quite a few ideas to help him get there, but none of them are easy. He wants to play as Roxas, from Kngdom Hearts. Not really as him, but the same fighting style. Quick, mobile, swinging all over. I thought: Elven Ranger TWF longswords.

Thinking about it now: What about Human(?) Sorc (dual-wielding) with Impliment Prof (heavy blade). Gets all the magic attacks, and easily reflavored into swordmagic. The Sorc can be a lot of book-keeping, though. Depending on the magic's source.
Side note, is there any way to add something extra to a Paired Weapon to bump it up a little? It's too low for 5th level, and a +2 is too high. Maybe add in something like:

Power (Encounter): On a critical hit, you may use this power. Make another attack with your off-hand as a free action

Or should it be a daily?

[Kurald Galain]

Well, he's already stated that he doesn't want to wear anything higher than leather armor. A fighter in leather is... different from useful?

Yes. If you want light armor, you need a dex- or int-based class (and note that a melee ranger is neither).

And that encounter power is not overpowered on its own, but beware that it stacks with several other "free attack on a crit" things that start showing up in paragon.

Oh yeah, sorcerers can dual wield as of AP, with the Dual Implement feat. I'd personally stick to Swordmage though if the point is magic-enhanced sword attacks; sorcerers just point their dagger and it goes "boom"

[Leon]

That sound like a good resolve of the issue

As an aside
Whats stopping a Sword Mage from Dual Weilding?

[Tiki Snakes]

Don't Forget the Hybrid Rules. :)

[edit] The Swordmage on his own is poor as a two weaponer because he gets an armour bonus from single weilding. Hybrid Swordmage does not, unless you buy it. Going for the Ranger Two-weapon fighting style instead gives you a non-off-hand weapon in your off hand, and toughness to make up for the lower con score. [edit]
Whipped up an example character using the Character builder. (Which I recommend using in this case, due to it providing power-cards. Newb friendly, I'd say, as they tell you all the numbers you need to know.


Summary print-out!

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Johnny Impossible, level 5
Human, Swordmage|Ranger
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Fighting Style
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 19 Fort: 18 Reflex: 18 Will: 15
HP: 49 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Athletics +10, Arcana +11, History +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +2, Heal +2, Insight +2, Intimidate +1, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +6, Stealth +3, Streetwise +1, Thievery +3

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 2: Focused Expertise (Bastard sword)
Level 4: Two-Weapon Fighting

POWERS
Hybrid Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Hybrid Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst
Bonus At-Will Power: Lightning Lure
Hybrid daily 1: Dragon's Teeth
Hybrid daily 5: Two-Wolf Pounce
Hybrid encounter 1: Dire Wolverine Strike
Hybrid encounter 3: Corrosive Ruin
Hybrid utility 2: Host of Shields

ITEMS
Panther Spirit Leather Armor +1, Cloak of the Walking Wounded +1, Adventurer's Kit, Longbow, Lifedrinker Bastard sword +1, Vanguard Bastard sword +1
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

Gives him plenty of sword-magic, a bastard sword in each hand (essentially dual weilding greatswords) Bonus damage from doing so, and a handfull of attacks that use both weapons, to boot.

It's no powergaming excersize, but far from unplayable. ;)

[Burley]

Kurald, what if I made it a Power (Encounter): As a minor action when you yaddayaddayadda?

Leon, the swordmage gets a +3 to AC when he has a free hand. It drops to a +1 when the other hand is occupied. It is assumed that if their hand is full, it is either a Defensive weapon, with the TWDefense feat, or a shield.

By the way, is Dual Implement a Sorc only feat? I can't remember...

[Tiki Snakes]

By the way, is Dual Implement a Sorc only feat? I can't remember...

No, it's not. Any arcane class gets it. Infact, it would possibly make a good addition to the build i posted above, eventually. Depending on which one worked with which, you'd probably at least want weapon focus as well (probably not expertise, I think), and maybe the two weapon defence feat eventually as well, because why not? Still, you only get so many at level 5. :)

[Totally Guy]

Oh, I get it. Easy PC... Easy peasy.

Very good.

[Leon]

Ok, Ty. Good to know that you can DW with it even if "oh noes" your not as powerful as a single weapon
Which goes back to my suggestion - it fits with what this person seems to have as the concept quite well with not much fuss (one feat)

[Burley]

Problem: Much of the Swordmages powers are Weapon keyword powers. Does the Dual Implement feat give the bonus damage on Implement keyword powers only?

[Babale]

Easy? Female bards are easy.

OH! You meant to play!

[Tiki Snakes]

Problem: Much of the Swordmages powers are Weapon keyword powers. Does the Dual Implement feat give the bonus damage on Implement keyword powers only?

Implement would be only on implement powers. That's why for my suggested build, I did add focused expertise, and two weapon fighting, but not dual impliment, because both of the above work for basically everything the Swordmage-Ranger does.

[Burley]

But does the feat specifically say "implement keyword" in it?

Anyways, as I'm not familiar with the hybrid rules (nobody at my table wants to deal with them yet), I don't want to use hybrid rules on a new player. I don't want to seem like I'm using alternate rules for him.
I'd rather stick with the good ol' "class+multi-class=PC" formula. I appreciate the build, though, Tiki. I want to play that Johnny Impossible so hard.

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually, I'd go so far as to say that on account of giving up a lot of each classes feature, as long as you have the math pre-done with power cards, such a hybrid might even be simpler than many of the standard classes.

I must say, though, I'd not be keen on building a hybrid character outside of the Character Builder, just because it'd be very easy to forget what they do and do not get, and what does and does not help them. Luckily, the Builder is a pretty good rough guide to things like whether or not a feat adds damage to certain powers, etc.

Haven't tried playing a hybrid yet, though, to be fair. Yes, Dual implement weilding works with Implement keyword powers. Focused expertise specifically says weapon and implement powers. Weapon Focus says when you use the weapon, (not weapon powers) so it does work when using the weapon as an implement. I believe Weapon Expertise specifically mentions Weapon Keyword powers only, though.
Two weapon fighting gives the bonus damage likewise through whatever you do via your MAIN HAND weapon.

[Artanis]

All this talk of hybrids and swordmages keeps getting further and further away from the "easy" part of the OP...

[Burley]

This is what I'm saying.

Except... Swordmages are pretty easy. Mark, Move, Magic. ~Jazz Hands~

[KIDS]

I have to say that, for an easy PC, your newbie is asking a whole lot of things that aren't even remotely easy. Doesn't he expect that a magical WTF warrior is much more complex than run of the mill fighter (which now actually has options despite being simpler)?

I think that Ranger/Warlock with TWF-ed pact blade sounds nice, and also Swordmage or Swordmage/Ranger. While Swordmage doesn't mesh very well with TWF, taking TWF and TWF defense feats is still helpful, and the character should be reasonably effective even if not build optimally (just slap an enormous INT on him and take melee training).

[Totally Guy]

The other thing to consider is the number of books required. If you're going through 3 or more books for the character it might be a little imtimidating.

[Artanis]

This is what I'm saying.

Except... Swordmages are pretty easy. Mark, Move, Magic. ~Jazz Hands~

Swordmages are a secondary Controller, which means they're going to be throwing around status effects and forced movement and stuff beyond just marking and stabbing. Rangers' tactics (especially for shooty Rangers) tend to be "pick a target, stab/shoot it until it dies, repeat".

[Burley]

He's asking for a lot because he knows nothing. I said "Pretty much, you there is something to cover just about anything, as long as you stretch the imagination a bit." He said what he wanted, and I made suggestions.
Anyways, thanks everybody. You've all been really helpful. I'll get with him tonight to pan out exactly what he wants.

[DSCrankshaw]

Well, you could try half-elf bard, with Twin Strike as the Dilettante. Bards get plenty of magic weapon attacks, and Combat Virtuoso lets you use Charisma as your attack stat for your Dilettante power. Take Two-Blade warrior to let him dual wield heavy blades. Make one of them a songblade.

The only issue is that bards aren't really easy to play, as they're leaders, and need to watch out for others.

Or, you can do the same trick by using another class (Warlock, Sorcerer, or some other Cha-based class, preferably) as the base, multiclassing with bard, and then taking Combat Virtuoso. You'll have to stick with off hand weapons though.

[Raevhen]

Would he be happy with just a Tempest Fighter? They get 2 weapons and are limited to Light or Chainmail. It doesn't have the Magical aspect, but could you just change the flavor of the powers? Then take a race that has magic-like powers like an Eladrin, Half-Elf or a Tiefling. That sounds simple.

EDIT: And they have powers that let them Shift all over the battlefield.

[Doc Roc]

Easy? Female bards are easy.

OH! You meant to play!

And this is why we can't have nice things. Ugh.