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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Hey there playgrounders. I've got a bard that I've been daydreaming about playing since the original 3.0 game he was in ended a few years back. The DM wants to bring the story back with 3.5, and we'll be starting up again at level 10 with the same character concepts, but made for 3.5. No one has their sheets anymore so we'll be rolling up our dudes again or taking 36 point buy, whichever we prefer.

    I've got my bard, Cern, pretty much put together and I think he's in respectable shape. However, I know that with your help, he could be made more useful. It's a social-intensive game with lots of mystery and exploration, and the occasional massive combat set in a desert environment.

    No idea what we'll get for equipment yet, but I've got a wish list that features a circlet of charisma.

    Resources allowed:
    PHB
    PHBII
    DMG
    Complete X series
    Races of X series
    Spell Compendium
    Sandstorm

    I've been challenged by the DM to play my bard without prestige classes, so I'm going to avoid the Seeker of the Song and all that stuff.

    My goal is to create a social beast with plenty of back-row combat utility. I'd love to hear your input on how I can improve him without making him utterly gamebreaking.

    --> Here's the current character sheet <--
    Last edited by OverdrivePrime; 2009-06-19 at 11:37 AM.
    Homebrew World: Daera - high fantasy setting on a world without humans
    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
    If the world was a Hollywood movie, Overdrive would be the protagonist.

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]


  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    That's pretty hot. Unfortunately, I don't have access to much IC optimization due to not having access to Eberron books, the Book of Exalted Deeds, or Dragon magic. I might be able to talk the DM into using the TOB, because a White Raven Bard / Jade Phoenix Mage might be a lot of fun.
    Homebrew World: Daera - high fantasy setting on a world without humans
    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
    If the world was a Hollywood movie, Overdrive would be the protagonist.

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    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    No Frostburn, huh? Well, that leaves out Snowflake Wardance. And no Song of the Heart, either ...

    I normally wouldn't recommend this, since I think the sort of things it's written for are better handled off the cuff by good DMing. But since this is primarily a Social campaign, something like Master Manipulator from PHB2 might be in order.

    From the "massive combat," it sounds like you don't fight often, but when you do it's against hordes of mooks. As such, Kiai Shout from Complete Warrior could be interesting as a group debuff (-2 to attack, will save negates, cr is cha-based).

    Depending on how you're planning to use it, Disguise Spell (CAdv) could be great for buttering up an audience for your companions to pry information.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Well, I know one thing that works well for the bard in my AoW campaign - he often uses his actions to make other people shine.

    For example, he has a shield with a wand chamber, and in it is a wand of Benign Transposition. He does things like transport melee folks to the front line, or swap people to maximise full attacks. He saves the casters from grapples, or readies an action and swaps a soft target away from the enemy barbarian's pounce. That wand gets a heck of a workout.

    He uses mostly spells that boost his comrades (Haste, Shock and Awe, Inspirational Boost) or debuff the enemy.

    He is taking Spell Focus Enchantment and GSF Enchantment, to keep his DCs up.

    As an example (at least one is from a source you may not have, but it paints the picture), his spells are:
    Spoiler
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    1st level spells:
    inspirational boost (+1 inspire courage)
    incite (deny readied actions and delaying to opponent, En)
    shock and awe (-10 to opponents initiative, En but no save)
    improvization (bonus to self for various things)
    insidious rythm (force concetration checks on casters, En)

    2nd level spells:
    glitterdust (reveals invisible, blinds stuff)
    undeniable gravity (anti-flying)
    wave of grief (debuff foes)
    battle hymn (reroll failed will saves for allies)

    3rd level spells
    dispel magic (he's a full caster, why not)
    hesitate (deny actions to a single foe)
    haste (party buff)
    (grabbing slow and unluck later)


    In combat he mostly sets up flanking, readies or delays actions to save people/move people, and sings. With a harmonizing weapon he can drop one song and have it continue for 10 seconds, while starting a second song.

    It may not seem like much, but his presence is felt in combat. If you like to be the guy rolling all the dice it won't suit you, but he gets nominated for MVP pretty often, since he makes everything come together. He may use his move action to go near an enemy, then switch places with the dwarf (via wand) allowing the dwarf to 5' step and full attack, rather than having to move and take a standard action to swing, or using his dispel magic to drop the enemy's buffs, or humming a maddening little ditty to force continued concentration checks on enemy casters.

    Whatever you do, you want to take the feat Melodic Casting.

    Spoiler
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    Whenever a Concentration check would be required to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability (such as when you cast defensively or are distracted or injured while casting), you can make a Perform check instead.
    In addition, you can cast spells and activate magic items by command word or spell completion while using a bardic music ability. Bardic music abilities that requite concentration still take a standard action to perform.
    Last edited by Epinephrine; 2009-06-19 at 12:39 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Telonius has the right of it - what rare combats we get into, we're usually up against hordes of weaker enemies, often with a squad of weak allies backing us up. There are the occasional match ups with henchmen of the BBEG, but the DM tends to avoid "monster of the week" scenarios.

    I'm definitely going to try to figure out a way to work Disguise Spell into the build.

    Epinephrine, your bard tactics sound like exactly the way I want to contribute. I'll have to look into some handy wands to compliment my spell list.

    I don't know if you got a chance to take a look at my spell list on the character sheet, but this is what I'm currently thinking of packing:

    Cantrips:
    Spoiler
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    Detect Magic
    Ghost Sound
    Mending
    Message
    Prestidigitation
    Read Magic
    1st level:
    Spoiler
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    Grease,
    Improvisation (SpC)
    Inspirational Boost (SpC)
    Silent Image
    2nd level:
    Spoiler
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    Alter Self
    Detect Thoughts
    Glitterdust
    Tactical Precision (SpC)
    3rd level
    Spoiler
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    Haste
    Charm Monster
    Dispel Magic
    Love's Lament (SpC)
    4th level
    Spoiler
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    Shadow Conjuration
    And then I'm torn between
    Sirine's Grace and Fugue, both from the Spell Compendium.
    Homebrew World: Daera - high fantasy setting on a world without humans
    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
    If the world was a Hollywood movie, Overdrive would be the protagonist.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    I like your Tactical Precision; it might work well with the spell Phantom Battle from PH2 (Bard3), which makes all those in an area flanked and denies them their AoO (but you can exclude allies, up to 1/level IIRC). Simply exclude your allies, and now they can wade into the illusionary battle, not worrying about AoOs, and getting to flank everyone they fight (so, +2 for flanking, +2 insight bonus, +X Inspire courage...)

    A nice wand with allies present is a druidic wand of Mass Snake's Swiftness; it's a little pricier, as a 2nd level spell (4,500gp), but giving all your allies in a 20' radius burst an immediate attack is pretty awesome (especially when you are giving them + to hit and damage from bardsong and such).

    The reason I'd avoid things like Fugue is that they are a continuous effect that will hurt your allies too (I also find Fugue a little broken with enough skill boosting, but maybe that's just me). I do like Love's Lament or Wail of Doom for an instantaneous effect on a group that debuffs for a while.

    Detect Thoughts is stellar - the favoured soul in our group has it, so the bard doesn't need it, but it's been amazingly handy.
    Last edited by Epinephrine; 2009-06-19 at 03:24 PM.

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    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Mass Snake's Swiftness doesn't stack with Haste though, which is worth WAY more as an action.

    Also, don't underestimate the power of Dim Door. Getting your melee party members where they need to be is a worthwhile use of an action. They can delay till after you, and you can bring 2-3 of them up into full attack range. This tactic is often called port n pwn, and seriously surprised one of my buddies who never realized just how much damage a 4th level spell could cause.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Mass Snake's Swiftness doesn't stack with Haste though, which is worth WAY more as an action.
    Agreed, especially if you are getting off full attacks.

    Mass Snake's Swiftness is nice when your team has just charged, or during a surprise round, or if your melee people are using ToB maneuvers in combat.
    Last edited by Epinephrine; 2009-06-19 at 03:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Since you can't access any of the things that buff Inspire Courage, why not aim for Sublime Chord? Gives you access to 7-9th level spells at level 11+, and thus makes you a lot more useful for buffing.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Since you can't access any of the things that buff Inspire Courage, why not aim for Sublime Chord? Gives you access to 7-9th level spells at level 11+, and thus makes you a lot more useful for buffing.
    His DM has asked him not to use PrCs.

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Ah! I see what you did there, I see it! Haha!

    Thank you to Logalmier for the avatar.
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    dip a level of Dread Necromancer for Charnel Touch, then Grease yourself, and sneak attack yourself with the Touch.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Epinephrine View Post
    I like your Tactical Precision; it might work well with the spell Phantom Battle from PH2 (Bard3), which makes all those in an area flanked and denies them their AoO (but you can exclude allies, up to 1/level IIRC). Simply exclude your allies, and now they can wade into the illusionary battle, not worrying about AoOs, and getting to flank everyone they fight (so, +2 for flanking, +2 insight bonus, +X Inspire courage...)
    Unfortunately these two spells don't synergize as well as it first appears. You don't get the bonuses from Tactical Precision unless a character is flanking with someone else who is under the spell's effect. Phantom Battle allows you to effectively flank with the spell. Both are good spells, but I wouldn't recommend both unless your DM changes the RAW on one or both spells.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Hmm, great advice here. Since the bard's spell selection and spells/day are so horribly limited (3 cantrips/day... really?) I'm trying to cover as much ground with his spells as possible.

    Sublime Chord would be a lot of fun, if I can talk the DM into it. Right now I'm by far the most experienced character in the game, and the DM is worried about the other players feeling like they can contribute enough. As a bard, it's my role to make them look as badass as possible, so hopefully I can convince the DM that I can broaden my access to utility (through Sublime Chord) without eclipsing the other players.

    Quote Originally Posted by yilduz View Post
    Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Ah! I see what you did there, I see it! Haha!

    Punnery is a weakness of mine.
    Homebrew World: Daera - high fantasy setting on a world without humans
    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
    If the world was a Hollywood movie, Overdrive would be the protagonist.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Fitz10019's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    If your DM wants you to be the buffer, ask him to add Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength and Owl's Wisdom to the bard spell list (and the mass versions). It's silly that they get Cat's, Eagle's and Fox's, but not Bear's, Bull's and Owl's.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    It's not that odd. Most classes just get the few that are most useful to them (with the obvious exception being sorc/wiz who get all).

    Bards get Cha, Int, and Dex.
    Druids get Wis, Con, Str, Dex.
    Clerics get Wis, Con, Str, Cha.
    Paladins get Wis, Cha, Str.
    Rangers get Con, Dex, Wis.

    Though really since stat boosters are one of the first items on most people's wish lists when they get the gold together, these spells begin to lose usefulness quickly. The boosts people can get the most use from they buy pretty quickly.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    If the DM allows homebrew things, you may find some of the Bard Song feats I made a while back to be useful: http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,137.0.html . (Are "Friends" Electric? could be handy in a combat scenario, and Don't Dream It's Over could help if you want the Bard to be a better healer.)
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2009-06-21 at 04:29 AM.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Tempest, those bard song feats you've made are terrific! I really dig 'em, and my DM, the former front man of a local band, will probably get a kick out of them too.
    Homebrew World: Daera - high fantasy setting on a world without humans
    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
    If the world was a Hollywood movie, Overdrive would be the protagonist.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Thanks. I initially made them solely because I thought it would be amusing (I've been trying to convert a Savage Garden somg named Affirmation into a song like that, but I can't think of any effects which would make sense without ripping off Wish or Miracle).
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bard Tune-Up needed! [3.5]

    Look, you are thinking too hard. This is a primarily social adventure? Gumshoe and mystery and all that? Bard is *THE* class for that.

    1) Max out Diplomacy. Look at the DC's necessary to change someone from hostile to ally. Not too hard for a Bard to hit, eh?

    2) Bluff check + Glibness = getting away with telling even blatant falsehoods while in a Zone of Truth or other forms of making you tell the truth.

    3) skills are more important to a bard than spells in these situations. Don't forget Gather Information, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Perform. You can do more without magic in a social situation than most classes can even dream of doing.

    4) If the GM is going to be tossing mysteries at you, then you had best stock up on your divinations. Scry, Legend Lore, and as always your Bardic Knowledge check can come in handy.

    5) Don't forget, your Bardic Music emulates a lot of fun stuff. Don't bother picking up Suggestion, since you can do it with Bardic Music, for example. It's almost pointless to pick up Charm Monster, as you can generally get the same effect with a Diplomacy check, or a suitabally worded suggestion.
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