How do you fight an epic spellcaster?

[Stormthorn]

Two casters of arbitrarily high level are fighting each other. Lets assume no epic spells used and both are pure wizards for simplicity. My questions are these:
Spellcaster A gets to prepare defensive spells- What would he cast? (up to...say...level 13 spells)
Spellcaster B is going to break As defenses although he doesnt know exactly what they are. What spells should he prepare?

[arguskos]

They both prepare nothing but Wish, and Wish at each other til someone dies.

Actually, I'll wait for a rules guru to come and correct me, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Stormthorn]

I was thinking that disjunction and time stop might both be important. And Disintegrate depending upon what sort of things it can break through.

[Flickerdart]

Wish gives SR, which makes it susceptible to Spell Immunity.

The first wizard to win initiative wins, since his Contingent Greater Celerity Maximized Time Stop goes off and he pulverizes the other guy. If it's defensive guy that went first, then he Dimensional Anchors the other guy and leaves.

[Douglas]

Wish gives SR, which makes it susceptible to Spell Immunity.

Even Greater Spell Immunity only goes up to 8th level spells, so it won't work against Wish.

The first wizard to win initiative wins, since his Contingent Greater Celerity Maximized Time Stop goes off and he pulverizes the other guy. If it's defensive guy that went first, then he Dimensional Anchors the other guy and leaves.

The defensive guy has Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) and laughs at you.

Assuming the offensive guy gets to prebuff himself too (it would be silly for him not to), his Ray Deflection deflects the Dimensional Anchor.

There are many, many, many ways for high level and especially epic casters to prepare for and preemptively negate all sorts of potential kinds of attacks.

Edit: This party uses just about every long duration or Persistable defensive spell in existence for 3.5, along with quite a few others, plus a lot of the more useful defensive magic items that can't be duplicated by spells. The main thing they don't have is certain uses of Contingency (had to pick just one) and crafted contingent spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wizard A probably uses Astral Projection and Plane Shift so that he's safe inside his demiplane (Genesis is not an epic spell) while a copy of him does the fighting.

Wizard B has his own demiplane, where time goes by 14,400 times faster than on the material plane. He casts Gate to open a portal to his demiplane, takes a move-action to step through, and has 24 hours of actions before Wizard A gets to take another turn. He can cast as many spells as he wants through the Gate (its duration is measured in material plane rounds), rest and prepare the right spells, have a snack, put on a puppet show, and then leisurely defeat Wizard A, if it would even be possible.

[Stormthorn]

But how does he get time to move that fast? Genesis specifies that you can change terrain, not temporality.

Also, i hear this Celerity thing thrown around a lot when talking about spellcasting and cheese. Yet the only Celerity i know of is a Divine Ability.

[Foryn Gilnith]

You don't know Celerity?
It activates as an immediate action, and gives you an action. Lesser gives you a move action, normal gives you a standard action, and greater gives you a full round. After that happens, you're stunned for a round. It cannot be activated if flat-footed or otherwise surprised.

Immunity to stun is easy, and some prestige classes let you cast it all the time (never surprised). You now get a free round whenever attacked.

[Keld Denar]

Celerity is a spell in the PHBII. Comes in 3 flavors. All are immediate actions that let you take an action now, but then stun you till your next turn. Lesser grants a move, regular grants a standard, and greater grants a full round.

Just whip up some Immunity to stunning (be undead, or Lim Wish for Favor of the Martyr (Pal4, SpC)) and you don't suffer the side effects.

And yea...Genesis lets you adjust all planar traits of a plane. According to the DMG, temporal traits are just as much part of a plane as morphology.

So, pretty much, the aggressor can't win, since he's fighting the defender on his own turf where he's essentially a god, and if the defender wins and slays the aggressor, all hes doing is slaying a projection since the real aggressor is safely home on his own plane projecting himself astrally.

Stalemate. Thats why epic wizards don't duke it out. When you have a 40+ Int, you can recognize futility when you see it. Instead, you play the bigger game of messin with factions and religions and whatnot, maybe usurping demon lords or slaying gods to steal their portfolios.

[erhnamdj]

The arcane version of the Genesis spell allows you to alter time traits. Celerity is a line of spells found in the Player's Handbook 2. Immediate action and it allows you to take standard actions.

Both of the wizards should have Craft Contingent Spell and as many Contingent miracles as possible. They should also both be Shapechanged into Dire Tortoises for every second of every day.

The general consensus is that, without epic spells or divine ranks higher than 5, neither can defeat the other unless they leave their demiplanes.

[woodenbandman]

Note: It's Dazed. Big difference. Wayyy harder to get immunity to daze (only Favored of the Martyr does that).

[Stormthorn]

Celerity is a spell in the PHBII.

Sinc eall i have is the SRD, DMs guide, MM, and Lords of Madness that would explain me not knowing Celerity.

It occurs to me that the less i have the less my (really cheapskate) party that doesnt own their own books will have, thus preventing things from getting too hectic.

EDIT: and a few forgotten realms things.

ALSO: Does Automatic Quicken Spell apply to the base spell or the finished spell with metamagic included? Because if its the metamagic'd level and not the base level my wizard villain will need to take it four times. That extra feat is important.

[Douglas]

ALSO: Does Automatic Quicken Spell apply to the base spell or the finished spell with metamagic included? Because if its the metamagic'd level and not the base level my wizard villain will need to take it four times. That extra feat is important.

Automatic Quicken Spell depends on the spell's level, not the level of the slot used to cast it. With the single exception of Heighten Spell (plus one or two others in certain splatbooks), metamagic feats do not change the level of a spell. Therefore, AQS ignores all metamagics applied to any given spell except Heighten Spell when determining whether it applies.

[Stormthorn]

So if im level 80 and i have Automatic Quicken Spell 3 and Multispell 10 i can cast 11 spells in one round?

And i have Impoved Metamagic 2 and Spell Capacity 5.

So i could cast 5 quickened maximized twined disintegrates after my 5 Quickened disjunctions and my Quickened Wish to take the enemy (and his guards) into my own demiplane? And a prestigiditation to clean up the ashes afterwords.

[Douglas]

12, actually. One non-quickened, one quickened for the normal limit, and ten extra for Multispell x10.

[Stormthorn]

I expanded the post for a sample set of 12 spells.

[Douglas]

Your example is valid. It would take eleven 9th level spell slots and one 0th level slot to do so. If you don't have that many 9th level slots, you could use your 10th level and higher slots to make up the difference. The enemy and each of his guards would get a will save against the Wish, however, so you'd be more likely to need multiple Wishes than multiple Disjunctions - unless there are Contingencies involved specifically against Disjunction.

[Stormthorn]

Im designing a level 80 lich librarian Diviner.

If someone messes with his extraplanar library he has spells up to level 15 and a high enough Int to get bonus spells at every level.

If people are annoying him i was planning on his "sit down and shut up" spell being a...wait...let me get all my metamgic together.

Twined Quickened (auto), Nonleathal Substitution, Sanctum Spell, Intensified, Stilled, Silent, Greater Shout from a caster with a base Int of 42.

Whats the DC on that? Im not sure what the bonus for Sanctum Spell is but it was free (DC +0 from what i could tell) and his library is certainly his sanctum. It was more of a flavor choice.

[Augmented Lurk]

Regarding Genesis:

1.There's nothing in the actual spell description that specifically states that you can change the time flow of the demiplane (there's just nothing that states you can't, so some people assume you can).
2.The Genesis that everybody always talks about is from 3.0, the 3.5 version isn't even on the sorc/wiz spell list (and spells don't have separate divine/arcane versions).
3.There has never been a single actual game where Genesis was allowed to work like that (unless the DM was some kind of crazy person who wanted to run a completely broken, uber-powered game).

[ZeroNumerous]

2.The Genesis that everybody always talks about is from 3.0, the 3.5 version isn't even on the sorc/wiz spell list (and spells don't have separate divine/arcane versions).

Oh really? I guess since a wizard can't cast Genesis he also can't affect it's many planar traits such as flowing time.

[sofawall]

I see nothing about planar traits at all in the spell description you linked.

[Myrmex]

And yea...Genesis lets you adjust all planar traits of a plane. According to the DMG, temporal traits are just as much part of a plane as morphology.

That's stretching it quite a bit.

It takes a specific type of cheese to get that game on.

Same with epic spell DC mitigation. Binding 1 trillion Solars?
Yeah, right.

[Tyrmatt]

Oh really? I guess since a wizard can't cast Genesis he also can't affect it's many planar traits such as flowing time.

Note that the use of EPIC spells is prohibited. :)

[Augmented Lurk]

The SRD version is from the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, and is outdated. There is a 3.5 version of the spell which is not on the sorc/wiz list, and specifically states that you can't affect time traits. If something has been updated to 3.5, the 3.5 version takes precedence.

[mostlyharmful]

Note that the use of EPIC spells is prohibited. :)

Note that Genesis is 9th level.

Augmented Lurk, where's the updated version?

[Lamech]

The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize.

From the SRD Can't visualize time flowing quicker. You can visualize actions happening slower in one area and faster in another, but flowing time is impossible. And pretty much everything with standard speeds would be out. Life, not allowed. Clocks fall under construction so not allowed. I suppose you could try picking say weather or gravity, but then you risk "The winds moving at 200,000 mph kill you instantly." or "You get crushed".

On the OP: Just use wish to teleport the person into a sphere of annihilation. That'll insto kill the target. And regardless of local conditions means that all the defense wizard does is in vain. Since you said arbitrarily high just spam an arbitrary number of wishes.

[sofawall]

Wish doesn't always work.

[Augmented Lurk]

I think it might be in one of the Underdark books.

[hamishspence]

Is there a 3.5 version? Deities and Demigods had the divine version (made defunct by 3.5 Complete Divine's removal of it from the Creation domain list.)

If Epic Handbook's update to 3.5 (online at WoTC site) doesn't chnage it, does that mean EPH is the "Most recent" version since it was published last, and thus, supersedes Deities and Demigods version?

3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook version clearly states- no time changing. Does this apply to earlier versions?

(Also, the Demiplane Seed version for Manual of the Planes Planeshifter PRC states clearly "Normal time" lists a few traits that can be changed- time is not one of them.)

EDIT: Underdark has Node Genesis- not same thing- creates earth nodes.
If you were talking about Augemented Lurk- its not in Underdark.

[Augmented Lurk]

Yeah, I think you're right. I thought there was a 3.5 update of Genesis, but I can't seem to find it on the internet. Having read through the SRD and ELH versions I think my first point still stands.

quote from SRD:
"You determine the environment in the demiplane when you first cast genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

Not anything you desire, but most. And there's nothing about time in there at all.