[4e] Making Intelligence useful

[dr.cello]

So, I have noticed that for any class that doesn't have class skills which rely on it, Intelligence has become a largely useless ability score to have--it provides bonuses only to knowledge skills, doesn't grant any additional skills, nor does it grant languages. There's little reason for intelligence to be used as anything but a dump stat, unless you have intelligence-based class abilities.

This isn't true of any other abilities. Wisdom gives bonuses to a number of useful skills, as do charisma and dexterity. Strength and constitution both help a character out in other ways.

So, my question is, if I'm running a campaign, is there a way to put intelligence on par with the other ability scores? Am I missing something?

I considered returning intelligence to its old position of 'add another skill for each point of int modifier,' but some rudimentary calculations suggest that this would quickly just cause high-intelligence characters to completely max out their skill list--would that be too much, or is the cost of putting a high ability score there commensurate with the potential gains? Should it only be a bonus skill for every two points of modifier (rounded up, perhaps)?

Giving bonus languages makes sense, but I doubt it would be adequate to encourage anyone not to dump intelligence.

[Flickerdart]

Every odd point is a skill, every even point a language? Thus, 16 INT nets you a language and two skills extra, at the cost of a valuable 16.

[FoE]

My Infernal Warlock luvs his high Intellegience score. It boosts a lot of his attacks.

Also, I may be mistaken on this because I don't have my book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I can use my Intellegience modifier to boost my AC if I'm wearing light armour.

[ZeroNumerous]

My Infernal Warlock luvs his high Intellegience score. It boosts a lot of his attacks.

There's little reason for intelligence to be used as anything but a dump stat, unless you have intelligence-based class abilities.

The OP addressed classes with intelligence-based abilities.

Also, I may be mistaken on this because I don't have my book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I can use my Intellegience modifier to boost my AC if I'm wearing light armour.

Yes, but there's no reason not to use Dexterity instead.

[Saph]

Yeah, the problem is that Intelligence has to compete with Dexterity. Dexterity boosts your stealth, acrobatics, initiative, and thieving. Intelligence boosts . . . your knowledge skills. And not even all of your knowledge skills, just some of them.

Unless you have some class feature that plays off Int, there's really no reason not to make it your dump stat.

- Saph

[Thajocoth]

The same can be said for any score. Str is useless for wizards, for example. Sure, if the DM throws nothing but pits at you, you'll need your friends to tie a rope to you, or if, for some odd reason, your group doesn't ignore encumbrance, you might need allies to hold a few things at high levels... But usually, that all comes up WAY less often than, say, Arcana checks to know more about a fey, elemental or shadow monster, Religion checks to know about immortal and undead monsters, Arcana checks to detect the presence of magic behind a door before busting it down, Arcana checks to determine what magical regions in the room actually do, History checks to determine the value of art objects, History checks to know about the area you're in, ect...

You don't need each score to be good for each player. Where one player is weak, another can help them pick up the slack. This is why a party needs to band together. Solo their weaknesses would all be exposed.

[Hal]

Well, a decent Int score will boost your Reflex defense, besides certain skill checks. In general, most players choose one or the other stat for each defense; high strength OR con, high dex OR int, high wis OR cha. Since the stats are (relatively) evenly divided on how many skills they affect, it's not that big of a difference.

That being said, Int is very important if you want to learn multiple languages. Linguist requires Int 13.

(Off topic: That's rather frustrating in my mind, as it means that most characters won't ever have access to what I would call a valuable non-combat feat. I really think it ought to just be accessible for the cost of the feat.)

[The New Bruceski]

Yes, but there's no reason not to use Dexterity instead.

So if you don't use Int-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Dex for Reflex and AC.

BUT

If you don't use Dex-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Int for Reflex and AC. Doesn't it work both ways like that?

[Saph]

So if you don't use Int-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Dex for Reflex and AC.

BUT

If you don't use Dex-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Int for Reflex and AC. Doesn't it work both ways like that?

Dexterity boosts initiative. Initiative is important. That's the difference, and the reason Int is the most common dump stat.

- Saph

[ZeroNumerous]

If you don't use Dex-based powers or skills there's no reason not to use Int for Reflex and AC. Doesn't it work both ways like that?

Dexterity boosts your stealth, acrobatics, initiative, and thieving. Intelligence boosts . . . your knowledge skills.

As Saph said, the comparison is ridiculous. And don't forget that Acrobatics or Athletics is good for getting out of grabs.

That being said, Int is very important if you want to learn multiple languages. Linguist requires Int 13.

Unless your DM goes out of the way to include as many languages as possible, there's basically no reason to ever have Linguist. Any party worth it's salt will be diversified enough to cover every language that would reasonably come up in a game.

Stuff about Arcana, History and Religion checks.

Doesn't Religion work off Wisdom? And why have a history check to know about an area when the Ranger can find out about it now? Why use an Arcana check to find magical auras behind doors if you're breaking them down anyway? It's not exactly a terribly important and necessary skill to have unless you really want the few Arcana-only rituals.

[Thajocoth]

Doesn't Religion work off Wisdom? And why have a history check to know about an area when the Ranger can find out about it now? Why use an Arcana check to find magical auras behind doors if you're breaking them down anyway? It's not exactly a terribly important and necessary skill to have unless you really want the few Arcana-only rituals.

No, Religion is Int. Divine classes tend to use Wis and gain training in Religion, but it's Int.

Yeah, you can run into battle unprepared. Totally. You could also run into battle knowing "Somebody towards the left has a magic item" or "There's a magical zone in the area." Then you identify that zone as "Everyone in the zone has +1 to hit" and suddenly know where it's advantageous to stand. Or you could wonder why all the enemies are guarding some symbol on the floor and wind up spending a lot more healing surges.

Knowing enemy's weaknesses tends to be incredibly useful too. Unless you're a rogue (who gets CA in that 1st round based on initiative), it's more useful than a higher initiative. The only monster knowledge checks int doesn't help with are natural and aberrant monsters.

What a Ranger can discover about the area now is what can be seen now. They can't see that 1000 years ago, Giants made sacrifices to some demon here only to be wiped out, then 500 years ago a group of Hobgoblins did the exact same thing for the same demon.

[Mando Knight]

Unless your DM goes out of the way to include as many languages as possible, there's basically no reason to ever have Linguist. Any party worth it's salt will be diversified enough to cover every language that would reasonably come up in a game.

That, and there's also the Comprehend Languages ritual, so if you're stuck in a place where everyone speaks a language you don't and lack knowledge of Common, you can understand them for about an hour, which should be more than enough time to get access to an interpreter who knows both Common and Language X without the ritual.

[Aron Times]

Knowledge checks are free actions. With the right knowledge skill, you can figure out a foe's powers, resistances, and vulnerabilities, among other things.

Knowledge skills work like DBZ scouters according to RAW. There's even an item in the Adventurer's Vault worn over an eye that lets you auto-identify the monsters that you encounter.

[Kesnit]

Dexterity boosts initiative. Initiative is important.
- Saph

How well you roll is more important than what your INIT mod is. In a recent gaming session, my DEX 10 Swordmage kept going before the high-DEX Rogue, simply because I rolled well and the Rogue rolled poorly.

[dr.cello]

Every odd point is a skill, every even point a language? Thus, 16 INT nets you a language and two skills extra, at the cost of a valuable 16.

Ah, excellent suggestion! Perhaps you could choose which one to start with--so a 16 could net you two languages and a skill if you felt so inclined.

[Behold_the_Void]

One of my house rules is Int or Dex can be used for initiative. I have considered some kind of skill thing too, but it hasn't come up too much thus far. The rule I was considering was each 2 points over 10 is another skill on your skill list, and each 4 points over is another trained skill.

[FoE]

Yes, but there's no reason not to use Dexterity instead.

Unless I'm an infernal warlock who wants a high Intellegience score.

[Kylarra]

How well you roll is more important than what your INIT mod is. In a recent gaming session, my DEX 10 Swordmage kept going before the high-DEX Rogue, simply because I rolled well and the Rogue rolled poorly.

With that in mind, there's no point in having high stats at all because how well you roll will always be more important at lower levels. So other than con, everything is now a dump stat.


See what I did there?

[Haven]

The same can be said for any score. Str is useless for wizards, for example. Sure, if the DM throws nothing but pits at you, you'll need your friends to tie a rope to you, or if, for some odd reason, your group doesn't ignore encumbrance, you might need allies to hold a few things at high levels... But usually, that all comes up WAY less often than, say, Arcana checks to know more about a fey, elemental or shadow monster, Religion checks to know about immortal and undead monsters, Arcana checks to detect the presence of magic behind a door before busting it down, Arcana checks to determine what magical regions in the room actually do, History checks to determine the value of art objects, History checks to know about the area you're in, ect...

But strength is much more useful to a wizard than intelligence is to a fighter. If the DM made a rule that all fighters get 18 intelligence and all wizards get 18 strength, the wizard would be able to make decent basic attacks (which is handy if a warlord's around or in various mitigating circumstances), not suffer from encumberance penalties (if those are in play), etc. Which isn't much, but it's more than a fighter gets, which is: possibly a Reflex defense bonus. That's the only benefit.

I really like Flickerdart's idea.

[Altima]

Perhaps allow intelligence to be added to some, or all, skills in addition to the skill's primary stat. In most cases, this should only be an extra one or two, which is hardly game breaking. I suppose it could get out of hand when you have certain characters starting with 18 or 20 intelligence, but, eh, they're supposed to be genuises anyway.

[Gralamin]

With all other things being equal, each stat provides the following:

Strength: Carrying Capacity, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Constitution: HP, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Dexterity: Init, 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Intelligence: 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Wisdom: 5 Skills, Will
Charisma: 4 Skills, Will

The major differences is when you compare the skills between Dex and Int, and Wis and Cha.

Dexterity: Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery (All good skills).
Intelligence: Arcana, History, Religion (Usefulness depends greatly on DMs)
Wisdom: Dungeoneering, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception (Heal, Insight, and Perception are all great. Dungeoneering and Nature - see Intelligence)
Charisma: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Streetwise (Bluff is a great skill, Diplomacy is entirely DM dependent, Intimidate isn't all that great, and Streetwise is a very good skill).

So really Intelligence and Charisma are about equally dump-stats compared to Dex and Wis.

[dr.cello]

It's also always been the case that strength is more or less useless for a wizard if your party isn't paying attention to encumbrance. If you ever had to do something physical you'd end up suffering for it.

The scenario I was envisioning when I wrote the original post was this: I'm rolling up a rogue. I envision him as being a fairly intelligent character, but I have to put that 8 in something. If I put it in pretty much any other stat, I'm going to be penalizing my character in some way. If I put it in intelligence I lose... well, I get penalized slightly on Arcana, History, and Religion checks. For most games I've played, that's essentially a nonexistent penalty, and if I put a good score in it, I gain no real benefit.

(Another observation: despite dex and int seldom playing nicely with one another in 4e RAW, I note that the Eladrin get a bonus to both...)

[Gralamin]

It's also always been the case that strength is more or less useless for a wizard if your party isn't paying attention to encumbrance. If you ever had to do something physical you'd end up suffering for it.

The scenario I was envisioning when I wrote the original post was this: I'm rolling up a rogue. I envision him as being a fairly intelligent character, but I have to put that 8 in something. If I put it in pretty much any other stat, I'm going to be penalizing my character in some way. If I put it in intelligence I lose... well, I get penalized slightly on Arcana, History, and Religion checks. For most games I've played, that's essentially a nonexistent penalty, and if I put a good score in it, I gain no real benefit.

(Another observation: despite dex and int seldom playing nicely with one another in 4e RAW, I note that the Eladrin get a bonus to both...)

Warforged and Eladrin are both notably more powerful then most races. This is due to the bonus to two stats that help the same defense.

[dr.cello]

I thought only the higher ability score counted towards your defense?

That is to say, if I have an 18 dex and a 16 int, I only get the +4 to my reflex defense, and the 16 doesn't do me any good?

[Gralamin]

I thought only the higher ability score counted towards your defense?

That is to say, if I have an 18 dex and a 16 int, I only get the +4 to my reflex defense, and the 16 doesn't do me any good?

Exactly why they made those races more powerful. Other races get a free +1 to two Defenses from ability increases. They only get a +1

[Zen Master]

Seriously though - would anyone with an above average intelligence go on adventures, ever????

I mean really - you're smart enough to make an honest living, doing well for yourself in any trade you chose. Let the morons with delusions of grandeur go off and get themselves killed by goblins.

[Oslecamo]

So really Intelligence and Charisma are about equally dump-stats compared to Dex and Wis.

But charisma's skills are that much powerfull, between diplomacy and intimidate you can make people dance to your song. My 4e fighter will much rather have a non negative intimidate modifier than a non negative knowledge modifier, specially when all his attacks are targeting AC anyway, so it's really not that hot to know the oponent's weakness.

[chiasaur11]

Seriously though - would anyone with an above average intelligence go on adventures, ever????

I mean really - you're smart enough to make an honest living, doing well for yourself in any trade you chose. Let the morons with delusions of grandeur go off and get themselves killed by goblins.

Because, unless you're born rich, adventuring is the only way to get real money.

Also, you can eventually become like unto a god. What part of that fails to appeal to your classic high int low wis type?

High wis types tend to be clerics, and thus defended by "My god would kill me otherwise."

[Gralamin]

But charisma's skills are that much powerfull, between diplomacy and intimidate you can make people dance to your song. My 4e fighter will much rather have a non negative intimidate modifier than a non negative knowledge modifier, specially when all his attacks are targeting AC anyway, so it's really not that hot to know the oponent's weakness.

That isn't the point of the comparison. The point is the argument "Int is a dump stat since Dex does almost all it can, and more" can easily also be applied to Wisdom and Charisma, IE: "The bonuses from Charisma are situational at best. Wisdom's bonuses tend to be fairly constantly useful. So Charisma should be dumped over Wisdom."

Assuming no class features use the stats, of course.

[half eaten oreo]

With all other things being equal, each stat provides the following:

Strength: Carrying Capacity, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Constitution: HP, 1 Skill, Fortitude
Dexterity: Init, 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Intelligence: 3 Skills, Reflex, AC in Light Armor
Wisdom: 5 Skills, Will
Charisma: 4 Skills, Will

Also Str and Dex are used in basic attacks, not huge but sometimes useful.