PC's dealing stat damage

[herrhauptmann]

So I was in a level 12 game last, and two of the characters pretty much took down an Aspect of Tiamat (I think it was at least, 5 headed dragon, in MM4 or 5, no SR, lower CR than a nightmare beast)

The thing about these two killing it, neither is really a powerhouse. There's a archery ranger/beloved of valerian, and a paladin/anointed knight. However, both have enfeebling weapons.
Because so many NPC's were in the way, I had my character run around the back of the building and cut his way through the stone wall (green starmetal sword). It took me 4 attacks to cut through it (3 per round) and by the time I got inside the building they had drained it's strength to 0, even though it still had almost 200 left.

So, I was wondering, what are the other easy methods of dealing stat damage (or stat penalties)that PC's can gain, besides polymorphing into monsters?
There's
Str:
Ray of Enfeeblement, (a stat penalty)
Enfeebling weapon enhancement (+1 bonus. Weakness is the low caster level on the weapon, so it usually can't penetrate SR)
Dex:
Shivering touch (I think that's what it's called)
Int/Wis:
Feeblemind (prevents all casting)


edit: Clarified request

[Olo Demonsbane]

Ray of Enfeeblement doesnt do stat damage, it applies a penalty.

[Starbuck_II]

So I was in a level 12 game last, and two of the characters pretty much took down an Aspect of Tiamat (I think it was at least, 5 headed dragon, in MM4 or 5, no SR, lower CR than a nightmare beast)

The thing about these two killing it, neither is really a powerhouse. There's a archery ranger/beloved of valerian, and a paladin/anointed knight. However, both have enfeebling weapons.
Because so many NPC's were in the way, I had my character run around the back of the building and cut his way through the stone wall (green starmetal sword). It took me 4 attacks to cut through it (3 per round) and by the time I got inside the building they had drained it's strength to 0, even though it still had almost 200 left.

So, I was wondering, what are the other easy methods of dealing stat damage that PC's can gain, besides polymorphing into monsters?
There's
Str:
Ray of Enfeeblement,
Enfeebling weapon enhancement (+1 bonus. Weakness is the low caster level on the weapon, so it usually can't penetrate SR)
Dex:
Shivering touch (I think that's what it's called)
Int/Wis:
Feeblemind (prevents all casting)

Ray of enfeeblement deals no damage, only a penalty to a stat. Same for the weapon I think (unless it deals damage).

[herrhauptmann]

Ray of enfeeblement deals no damage, only a penalty to a stat. Same for the weapon I think (unless it deals damage).

Weapon deals temporary damage. And yes I know Ray of Enfeeblement can't apply penalties to strength to make it 0. However, it can lower you to 1, at which point you're overly encumbered by the weight of your clothes and you fall over.

[Keld Denar]

Rogues get Weakening Strike (2 str damage, special ability), and evil rogues can take Maiming Strike (1 cha damage per 1d6 sacrificed).

Wounding does Con damage.

There is also Ray of Stupidity, SpC, 2nd level for 1d4+1 Int.
Numbing Sphere, 1d4 dex on top of cold damange
Parboil does 1d4 Int on top of fire damage

And probably a ton more if I think about it...

[Tukka]

A few ToB maneuvers: Drain Vitality (2 Con damage), Strength Draining Strike (4 Str damage), Mind Strike (1d4 Wis damage), Bloodletting Strike (4 Con damage), Hamstring Attack (1d8 Dex damage).

There's also status conditions which give penalties. Exhaustion (-6 Str/Dex) and fatigue (-2 Str/Dex) being two of the most notable. Entanglement gives a -4 to Dex.

[herrhauptmann]

A few ToB maneuvers: Drain Vitality (2 Con damage), Strength Draining Strike (4 Str damage), Mind Strike (1d4 Wis damage), Bloodletting Strike (4 Con damage), Hamstring Attack (1d8 Dex damage).

There's also status conditions which give penalties. Exhaustion (-6 Str/Dex) and fatigue (-2 Str/Dex) being two of the most notable. Entanglement gives a -4 to Dex.

How many of each of these stack? Two entangle spells don't provide a -8 to dex I think.

[Guancyto]

Well no, pretty much nothing stacks with a second application (aside from fatigue, fear and dodge bonuses).

Psion has Ego Whip which deals Cha damage. Also, pretty much any poison does some flavor of stat damage.

[Curmudgeon]

Rogues get Weakening Strike (2 str damage, special ability)

Are you sure about that? Crippling Strike is perhaps what you're thinking of, doing 2 points of STR damage on a sneak attack. The Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) will make this STR damage occur even if the target is normally immune to sneak attack.

and evil rogues can take Maiming Strike (1 cha damage per 1d6 sacrificed).

Sorry, that Ambush feat from Exemplars of Evil is 1 CHA damage per 2d6 of sneak attack damage sacrificed. It's not a great tradeoff.

A Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) will do CON damage on an unarmed critical.

[Keld Denar]

Yea yea yea...I was going from memory on Crippling Strike. Still does what I said.

And Maiming Strike isn't bad if you can start combat in full attack position (such as from Invisibility, or utilizing Sudden Leap/Pouncing Charge). A TWFing rogue could drop 6 dice to get 3 Cha per hit. Assuming 5 attacks at mid level (MH + MH + OH + OH + Haste), that's 15 Cha if all hit. Thats plenty enough to paralyze any but the most Cha focused character, and SERIOUSLY inconvenience a Cha based caster.

Its kinda situational, but its still VERY effective when you utilize it. More useful than something like Telling Blow (yes, I still haven't forgotten that arguement :P).

[Quietus]

How many of each of these stack? Two entangle spells don't provide a -8 to dex I think.

No, but you can drop an Entangle/Web spell, plus drop Exhaustion. That's -10 penalty to Dex; Who needs Shivering Touch to drop dragons via dex, when you can do it pure core?

Ray of Exhaustion (x2, if it passes its save) plus Web. Level 5 Wizard can do that. No save given, and they're paralyzed for 1 minute/level.

Alternatively, get level 7 spells. Waves of Fatigue + Web = area effect mass paralysis.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mountain Tombstone Strike does 2d6 Con damage as a maneuver...

Really, though, there's a weakness to doing stat damage: A lot of the higher-end challenges are immune to it, or are protected against it. Take, for example, the Aspect of Tiamat or whatever in the OP... it should have had immunity to stat damage. Otherwise a simple Shivering Touch could have brought it down... just like it does any other dragon.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Note that Enfeebling weapons only deal strength damage on a critical hit. If they got a monster to Str 0 in a single round then they either got really lucky with their critical hits, or they were erroneously applying the strength damage on every attack.

The Wounding weapon property (DMG) deals Con damage, the Marrowcrushing (BoVD) weapon property also deals Con damage, plus they stack if put on the same weapon.

A Psychic Rogue or Psychic Assassin can get the Mind Cripple special ability which deals 2 Int damage on every successful sneak attack. A single full attack with that can disable half the monsters in the game.

The spell Shivering Touch in Frostburn deals 3d6 Dex damage, no save. It's low enough level to be placed into a Spell Storing weapon, and it can even be Maximized.

Ray of Stupidity in Spell Compendium deals 1d4+1 Int damage. Apply all the standard Enervation metamagic to one-shot an epic wizard.

[Brock Samson]

So why is it with all these various things going on that you almost see NOTHING that does Wisdom damage/penalty?

[Emy]

So why is it with all these various things going on that you almost see NOTHING that does Wisdom damage/penalty?

Mind Poison / Spell Compendium pg 141

[T.G. Oskar]

Though, be swift to recall: ability damage stacks, while penalties from the same source usually don't stack. You can pretty much kill enemies from several attacks with a Wounding weapon, but you can't kill an enemy from two different uses of Ray of Enfeebling. Usually, as a rule of thumb, you can argue that penalties tend not to stack; a Touch of Idiocy coupled with a Ray of Stupidity could be argued that don't stack (at least I know of DMs that won't allow them to stack), but RAW they would stack. Two consecutive Touches of Idiocy on the same target definitely won't stack. But, a cast of Bestow Curse to grant a Dex penalty and Shivering Touch WILL most definitely stack and are excellent tactics.

[Zanticor]

I thought all damage stacked? For max ability damage, a phantasmal assailants out of the SC packs a good punch. With two failed saves you do 8 dex and 8 wis damage. Cast two and you can drop most anything because very little monsters have both 16 dex and 16 wis. They will of course have to fail 4 saves...

Zanticor

[mostlyharmful]

It's a powerful tactic that's often under used but if they get to rely on it they'll get stuck when something inevitably shows up that's immune (construct, undead, Plant, warded, whatever..). My favourite is having a sling of wounding in a high level adventurers backpocket, get a source of decent mobility or fast flight and you can often get quite far by just plunking away from range, even some of the Epic monsters'll go down to this.

[daggaz]

ok something seems well off with the OPs game..

They should need to land criticals for stacking ability damage, or the weapon should apply a one time only ability penalty. Anything else is horrendously broken (as is pimping the crit range on a wounding weapon) and I am surprised the DM would let that fly..

Were they just mad lucky with crits, or wha??

Edit: just reread the old SRD... wounding weapons seem to do the damage on any and all strikes. Is that not just terribly broken??

[Blackfang108]

CON: Wounding Weapon(+2 value)

1 point of CON damage per hit.

INT/WIS/CHA:
Soulknife's Knife to the Soul(level 13 feature)
Give up your extra damage dice to deal that many points of INT, WIS, or CHA damage(your choice at the time.)

Move action to recharge your damage dice.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Though, be swift to recall: ability damage stacks, while penalties from the same source usually don't stack. You can pretty much kill enemies from several attacks with a Wounding weapon, but you can't kill an enemy from two different uses of Ray of Enfeebling. Usually, as a rule of thumb, you can argue that penalties tend not to stack; a Touch of Idiocy coupled with a Ray of Stupidity could be argued that don't stack (at least I know of DMs that won't allow them to stack), but RAW they would stack. Two consecutive Touches of Idiocy on the same target definitely won't stack. But, a cast of Bestow Curse to grant a Dex penalty and Shivering Touch WILL most definitely stack and are excellent tactics.

Are you trying to imply that two Fireballs cast on the same creature would not stack? Damage is not a penalty, and there is no question of stacking involved. Damage occurs instantaneously, it changes the value of the target's HP or ability score to a new value until it is healed back. It doesn't matter how their HP or ability score got to that value, more damage regardless of the source will always be able to affect it. Penalties have a duration, cast one Ray of Enfeeblement and they have a dispellable debuff that can be tracked, so a second casting will not stack. Damage to an ability score such as Ray of Stupidity has no ongoing spell effect, it instantaneously changes the ability score to a new value until healed, and a second effect that applies a penalty will definitely stack with it.

As another example, say a PC with 30 HP gets attacked by a Wight. They take 4 damage, down to 26, and gain one negative level, which imposes a -5 penalty to their HP. That PC now has 21 hp, their max HP is 25 due to the negative level and any HP damage they take will be subtracted from their current total. There is no argument that additional damage will not stack with the HP penalty from the negative level. Just the same, a character can have both a penalty to an ability score and damage to an ability score. Multiple penalties may not stack, but damage is not a penalty and stacks with everything.

[ericgrau]

Enfeeblement doesn't stack, since it's a strength penalty not damage or drain. It can't bring a stat below 1 either. There are some cheesy spells out there that bypass such restrictions, many DMs have had serious trouble with such, and the simple answer to them is the ban hammer.

The one valid & stackable way I know to take someone out with stat damage is poison, which isn't easy.

[Person_Man]

I suggest Dex damage/penalties, as they're the most common, and many big monsters (high hit points - the ones you most want to kill with alternative means) generally have low/mediocre Dex.

Remember, penalties from different sources stack. Reducing an enemy to 0 Dex means that they're Paralyzed. A low Dex and/or Paralyzed enemy is ridiculously easy to hit, and is subject to Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, and Coup de Grace.

• Shivering Touch (Frostburn pg. 104):No Save, 3rd level spell, deals 3d6 Dex damage.
• Net (SRD): Touch Attack to Entangle (-4 penalty to Dex). But note that nets, razor nets, and lasso can't effect creatures more then one size category different then you.
• Razor Net (Dragon Comp p. 115):Touch Attack to Entangle.
• Lasso (BoED p. 34): Touch Attack to Entangle.
• Quick Draw (SRD): Needed for making a full attack with thrown weapons.
• Spell Storing Weapon (SRD): Useful for delivering spells with weapons, like a net.
• Tanglefoot Bag (SRD): Ref Save or Entangled.
• Smiting Spell (PHBII):Useful for delivering spells with weapons.
• Entangle (SRD): Ref Save or Entangled.
• Briar Web (Com Div p 156): Cler 3/Dru 2/Ran 2: Ref Save or Entangled + 1d6 poison Dex damage.
• Entangling Spell (Champ of Ruin): +2 LA, any creature damaged by an energy spell is also Entangled for 1 round, No Save.
• Touch of Fatigue: Fort Save or Fatigued. Enemy who is already Fatigued becomes Exhausted.
• Ray of Exhaustion: Touch Attack makes enemy Exhausted. Successful Fort Save still leaves you Fatigued.
• Dragonborn (Races of Dragon): +0 LA race with Ref Save breath weapon.
• Entangling Exhalation (Races of Dragon p 101): Breath weapon Entangles.
• Quicken Breath (Draconomicon p 73): Quickens breath weapon.
• Entangling Ectoplasm (SRD): Touch Attack Entangles.
• Ghost template (SRD, +5 LA): Horrific Appearance deals 1d4 Str, Dex, and Con damage
• Corrupting Touch (Ghostwalk): Touch Attack deals 1d4 Dex damage.
• Empowered Ability Damage (Libris Mortis, reqs incorporeal undead type): Ability damage deals +50% damage.
• Rope of Entanglement (SRD): No Save or attack roll, Entangles.
• Poison: Many poisons deal Dex damage.
• Poison Master (Comp Scoundrel): Poison deals +1 ability damage per die.
• Touch of Golden Ice (BoED): Evil enemies hit with unarmed or natural attacks must Save (DC 14 Fort) or take 1d6 Dex damage.
• Wild Shape/Alter Self/Polymorph: Turn into something that deals Dex damage., like a Giant Centipede or Scorpion Folk or Ettercap, and/or have one as an animal companion or cohort or whatnot.
• Death Blow (Comp Advent p 106): Coup de Grace as a Standard Action.

For a relatively low investment (a few Spell Storing weapons) you can quickly impose a -18ish or more or more penalty/damage to an enemy's Dex. The odds of your success are usually very high. It's a great backup option for a Ranger, Factotum, or Rogue-ish character.

The down side is that tons of mid-high level enemies are immune to Dex damage, poison, fatigue, etc. And DMs will quickly tire of you one-round-one-kill-ing their BBEG, and thus make all/most of their boss characters immune just to challenge you. And some DMs may rule that Entangling effects (even ones from different sources) don't stack, because not all of them spell out their penalties. Some of them just say that you become Entangled, and the description of Entangled and the FAQ say nothing about what happens if you become Entangled a second time. So it's not worth a significant investment.

[Tukka]

Are you trying to imply that two Fireballs cast on the same creature would not stack? Damage is not a penalty ...

The first thing said in his post was that damage stacks.

[UserClone]

How can you have a sling of wounding? can that even be used on a bludgeoning weapon?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

How can you have a sling of wounding? can that even be used on a bludgeoning weapon?

Yep. There's no weapon type restriction on wounding.

[Duke of URL]

Are you trying to imply that two Fireballs cast on the same creature would not stack? Damage is not a penalty, and there is no question of stacking involved. Damage occurs instantaneously,

As you said, there is no question of stacking:

Instantaneous Effects

Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.

[Darkfire]

No-one's mentioned Chill Touch yet? It's got to be the only 1st-level core spell that does ability damage.

[Curmudgeon]

How can you have a sling of wounding? can that even be used on a bludgeoning weapon?

• Yes, wounding can be used on a bludgeoning weapon.
• However, you would have to hit someone with the sling; the property doesn't transfer from sling to bullet.

[Ravens_cry]

• Yes, wounding can be used on a bludgeoning weapon.
• However, you would have to hit someone with the sling; the property doesn't transfer from sling to bullet.

So in other words you would have to get Bullets of Wounding. That could get expensive.