[4e] Where to take a Warlord?

[Swordguy]

So, I've finally gotten involved in a 4e game as a player rather than as a DM, and am much looking forward to seeing how it plays from the other side of the screen. Warlords have appealed to me since the edition first came out, and so was a natural choice for me to play.

It's a pregenerated character with rolled stats (not point-buy, everyone in the party got the same set of 6 scores to assign). I'm wondering where to take the character from here, mechanically, without compromising the RP characteristics outlined below.


RP considerations: We're playing tieflings old-school, Planescape-style. They're literally descendents of demons, with terrible tempers (and look nothing like WoW-style Draenei). I'd like to play up that demonic heritage. I'm considering retraining my feat to MC: Warlock (infernal) or picking it up in the near future.

The group is competent, but not inherently optimization-heavy (aside from the DM). Moderate to moderate-high power level would be as high as I'd want to take the character. Other players are playing a Gnome Rogue, a Goliath Warden, and Human Druid. Old-school treasure rules; it's ROLLED RANDOMLY, so expecting any specific treasure or magic-item shops is NOT going to happen.


Character Stats:

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Warlord 1 (Tiefling) - Tactical specialty
Alignment: Neutral

Str: 17
Con: 14
Dex: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 16

HP: 26
AC: 18 (Hide [+3], Int [+3], Heavy Shield [+2])
FORT: 14 (Ability [+3], Class [+1]
REF: 13 (Ability [+3])
WILL: 14 (Ability [+3], Class [+1])

Skills: Acrcana (+8), Athletics (+8), Bluff (+5), Diplomacy (+8), History (+8), Intimidate (+8), Stealth (+3)

Powers:
At-Will: Furious Smash, Wolf Pack Tactics
Encounter: Inspiring Word, Warlord's Favor, Infernal Wrath, Thunderwave
Daily: Lead the Attack

Feat: Multi-class Wizard (Thunderwave)

Equipment: Hide Armor, Heavy Shield, Khopesh, Adventurer's Kit.

So, who's played through Warlord for a good bit? Any advice out there? I've got an interesting issue in that, with 16's in BOTH Int and Cha, I can freely dabble in both Inspiring and TacLord abilities to a certain degree before I settle down and choose one (retraining if necessary).

[Kol Korran]

i played a warlord up to 4th level, so i can't help you much, but a few things:
1- you're listed as using a heavy shield. warlord are proficient only with light shields.

2- i realy liked the commander strike at will power. first of all, it realy felt as if i'm leading the battle. second the rogue and defender usually dealt more damage than i could, and they appreciated the extra attack (especially the rogue if he missed on his sneak attack.). note that the power does not entail range, and there is a disagreement whether you can command your allies from afar, or whether you have to be adjacent to them. check with your DM. the power sucks if you have to be adjacent.

3- kophesh? realy? if it's for appearance sake than go for it, but the brutal 1 isn't that much of a big deal. personally- nothing of the normal weapons beats a longsword. mainly because when you need to hit with your powers, you realy need to hit with them. nothing bums you more than missing your "lead the attack" daily by 1. i personally also like the longsowrd look. very proffesional-soldier-like.

4- some basic equipment i'd advise you to have if you can afford it:

• a few javelins: your best ranged weapon, with a good range, and since it's "heavy thrown" than you use your strength for it instead of dex. for those times when the enemy is just to far to hit.
• dagger: because realy- everyone must have one.
• if it doesn't ruin your style then some sort of a polearm. in tight corridors you can fight from behind your defender to great effect.

5- about multiclassing to a warlock. could be nice for the extra powers, and perhaps for the mechanical benefits of later powers (the hellish rebuke is kind of weak as an encounter. besides, it is based on con, which is not that strong with your character). i'd suggest to just reflavour the wizard powers you get from that multiclass (thunderwave could perhaps be the laughter and roaring of demons, or something like that). also, you may take the various tiefling feats to enhcnae your heritage effect.

i hope this helped, good luck, always nice to see a player who thinks about roleplay aspects seriously.
Kol.

[Mando Knight]

And you couldn't have taken Commander's Strike? Seriously, it's the best At-Will for a TacLord. Especially with any characters that have decent melee basics.

Weapon-wise, I prefer +3 proficiency weapons, especially with Warlords with < 18 Strength, since the weapon's bonus allows you to hit a bit more often, allowing those ever-so-useful bonuses (like Lead the Attack) to come into play. Bastard Swords are the best Heavy Blade (except if you go 2-handed. Then it's the Fullblade), and Greatspears have d10 damage dice, +3 proficiency, and Reach.

I haven't toyed around with Tiefling Warlords much, since Eladrin (with Martial Power) make supreme Tactical Warlords.

[DiscipleofBob]

I'd consider the Resourceful Warlord build if I were you so you can get the most out of both your Int and Cha scores.

As for power selection, sounds like a melee heavy group, so powers that shift allies and enemies around for the rogue to get into position sound good.

[Swordguy]

And you couldn't have taken Commander's Strike? Seriously, it's the best At-Will for a TacLord. Especially with any characters that have decent melee basics.

PREGENERATED character. DM creates it, we get to take it from there - so I can retrain stuff later if necessary.

I think it was there because the DM was worried I'd be bored about not getting to make attack rolls, but swapping my attack for somebody else's.

I'd consider the Resourceful Warlord build if I were you so you can get the most out of both your Int and Cha scores.

I've not seen that. Can you detail a Resourceful 'Lord?

*stuff*

Good stuff man. The Khopesh was on there because the mini I planned on using was a Tiefling with a Khopesh, and the DM just incorporated it. Good call on the Heavy Shield - I'll let him know and drop to a Light Shield. What would people think about swapping Thunderwave for Scorching Burst? It's a ranged attack, which I need, and I like the flame-y imagery (though I understand the Thunderwave is there as Battlefield control, which is thematic for a Warlord).

[Gralamin]

What sources are available? Since you didn't Mention Bravura or Resourceful, I'm guessing AV and PHB 1 and 2. Can you give a confirmation?

[Swordguy]

What sources are available? Since you didn't Mention Bravura or Resourceful, I'm guessing AV and PHB 1 and 2. Can you give a confirmation?

Exactly that. PHB 1 & 2, Adventurer's Vault. No DDI stuff.

I THINK Martial Power may be allowed in the near future - the DM said he was going over it to see if he wants to include it. No guarantees (and goading him about it won't help and will probably actually hurt the chances of it being legal).

[SSGoW]

i played a female warlord once... sadly i got to like level 2 before the DM decided to destroy my character out of spite >.> all i can say is stay away from giant snakes and remember you are a leader first and foremost also i've always felt that the warlord is alot like a bard :p (might help with roleplaying)

[Mando Knight]

The ranged attack helps. Even though fire damage isn't "optimal," it's still the best way to make sure anything that isn't red or glowy-orange dies. On top of that, it's a mini-fireball. Which is a ball of fire. And that is a good thing.

[Kol Korran]

i agree with Mando Knight- small fireballs are always nice, especially due to your character concept. it's very, very handy at taking down ranged minions behind cover/ walls/ clustering at an opening and so on. it actually fits the warlord idea quite well- a different kind of battle control.

also- talk to your DM about the commander's strike- if you don't care letting others roll to hit, then it's a great power...
the resourscefull build is from Martial Power by the way. you should realy look into the book when you get the chance.

Kol.

[Gralamin]

Honestly, the best advice I can give has Already been given. That thread however doesn't address PHB2 Feats, of which their are a few key ones you'll want to take.

Heroic:
Weapon Expertise - If you decide to Greatspear Wield, getting your druid to use Transfer Enhancement from AV to keep it improved, Take Spears/Polearms, otherwise you probably want Heavy Blade.

Restful Healing - Reduces your groups Downtime substantially.

Timely Respite - A great feat for when things go wrong.

Paragon:
Paragon Defenses (At level 21 Retrain into Robust Defenses) - A bit of a defensive boost.
Vexing Flanker - Most of your group should take this feat.

Epic:
Robust Defenses (Retrain from Paragon Defenses) - More Defensive Boost.

Other then that, That thread should give you good suggestions for all or almost all your questions.

[Nu]

I've not seen that. Can you detail a Resourceful 'Lord?

It basically uses both INT and CHA as riders, and generally sacrifices a bit of power for more flexibility. There's a paragon path for it that even lets you select a second Commanding Presence at level 16 (so you could have both Resourceful Presence and Tactical Presence then, thereby giving you some of the power of the TacLord back, and you get to keep your versatility). That's something to consider if you think the campaign will go on that long.

The Resourceful build seems tailor-made to tieflings, especially since that paragon path is called "Infernal Strategist." It is, of course, from Martial Power, so you could only use it if the DM ends up allowing that.

[Hal]

If you can get it, replace one of your At-Will attacks with Brash Assault. Two reasons:

1) It can potentially be an At-Will with 2[W] damage. That's really nice.

2) The attack your ally gets is with combat advantage. Your party rogue will love you.

Also, are you tied to hide armor? You get chain proficiency, and since you're going to be on the front-lines frequently, it's not a bad idea to upgrade to scale or plate at some point.

[Mando Knight]

Also, are you tied to hide armor? You get chain proficiency, and since you're going to be on the front-lines frequently, it's not a bad idea to upgrade to scale or plate at some point.

Wrong. As a Tactical Warlord, he's way better off with Hide, which grants his Intelligence Bonus to AC... and since he'll be boosting his Int at every available opportunity, it saves him two feats for similar AC.

[TheThan]

Clearly you’re supposed to take a warlord to war.

[erikun]

I played a Tactical Warlord for a few levels; here's my experiences.

First, the best part of a Warlord's powers are the effects. Damage is a secondary concern, as others do it better than you. You want the highest to-hit possible, making longswords (or some other +3 proficiency weapon) your best bet.

Reach has positive and negative aspects. On the minus side, your AC ends up comparatively low, and you WILL be in combat. On the plus side, you can hit anything with 7 squares of you (after moving) and don't need to stand next to them to attack, unless you want to flank.

Unless you're going Resourceful Warlord (Martial Power), focus on either INT or CHA as your secondary stat. INT gives you a bonus to AC in light armor, so swap out for Hide as early as possible. If you're deciding on CHA, step up to Scale Mail if you can.

Commander's Strike (lv.1 at will) and Hammer and Anvil (lv.1 encounter) are either amazing or worthless, depending on if there is a STR-based damaging meleer in the party.

Shake it Off is excellent if you keep running into (save ends) effects from enemies, but won't see any use for most battles. Still, it can be a lifesaver, even without a CHA bonus.

[Colmarr]

I THINK Martial Power may be allowed in the near future

If Martial Power is made available, consider Bravura Warlord. It's basically the "balls-to-the-wall, take risks to profit" warlord build, and I see it as a very complementary build to your campaign's view of tieflings.

Might not be the optimal mechanical choice, but it certainly fits with the "temper" angle to the character.

Of course, having said that, Tactical/Inspiring/Resourceful/Bravura are not normally things that you can retrain. You're stuck with them after character creation unless the DM lets you reboot.

[Mando Knight]

Unless you're going Resourceful Warlord (Martial Power), focus on either INT or CHA as your secondary stat. INT gives you a bonus to AC in light armor, so swap out for Hide as early as possible. If you're deciding on CHA, step up to Scale Mail if you can.

As a Tactical Warlord, he has one logical choice: Intelligence. Charisma is a far third behind Intelligence, so unless he's taking Resourceful Presence, there's no reason to boost it up beyond the (already quite decent for an extra stat) 16. All powers, class abilities, and feats that require Tactical Presence or are suggested for a Tactical Warlord are focused on Intelligence.

Commander's Strike (lv.1 at will) and Hammer and Anvil (lv.1 encounter) are either amazing or worthless, depending on if there is a STR-based damaging meleer in the party.

Two words: Melee Training. It's a PHB II (allowed player resource!) feat that changes the character's melee basic attacks to use any not-Strength attribute the player wants. Good for anyone other than Warlords, TWF Rangers, Fighters, Strength Paladins, Barbarians, Wardens, and Strength Clerics.

[Leon]

Clearly you’re supposed to take a warlord to war.

Not at first, try the movies or going bowling

[Swordguy]

New question...

The DM is drawing treasure from Adventurer's Vault. Now, having looked through the book and seeing the relative paucity of Hide armors (as compared to Chain, Scale, and Plate) do ya'll think it'll be worth it to forget about depending on the INT bonus to AC from wearing Light Armor and building up some heaver armor proficiency? I'd have to go pretty high to get past the bonus I'll get as an INT-based TacLord...but the odds of him randomly rolling a magical Hide Armor (and forget about one being useful) is relatively low.

Oh, how I wish Tactician's Armor was an "Any" armor...

Also, thanks Gralamin...I hadn't seen that before, and my Gleemax searches hadn't turned up much up-to-date stuff on Warlord play.

Last, @ Colmarr - if a new book is allowed that fundamentally alters how a PC class works (like allowing the new choices of Resourceful or Brauva Warlord where they previously didn't exist) our group policy is that you can choose - in the first session after the book is made legal ONLY - to rewrite your PC with the new book. It's a decent compromise.

[Kol Korran]

for the level 2 utility i suggest "aid the injured" you can never have too much healing, especially if something goes wrong, or the opposition is stronger than you imagined. to my opinion it's better than the cleric's cure light wounds since it's an encounter power instead of a daily. in my group i used it at almost every encounter.

as to the 3rd level encounter, i suggest steel monsoon, (especially if you're a tactlord). shifting can help get from a perilious situation, or get closer to a ranged opponent, and into a flanking position and more.

note: i realy don't remember the marital power powers, so there might be something better. i'm speaking only from experience (and back then we had only the PHB)

don't forget to tell us what you ended up with!

Kol

[Grynning]

I've been playing a TacLord (Eladrin) since 4th ed released, and I have a few tips to offer.
Powers: The ones I've found consistently useful are Lead the Attack (I think that's what it's called, lvl 1 daily, MP, it's the one that does 2w and a minor effect if you hit and lets 2 allies shift one and make an attack if you miss); Villain's Nightmare (Lvl 5 daily, PHB, lets you stick to a bad guy and keep them from moving more than one square a turn - my DM says it's the most appropriately named power in the PHB); and of course, Guileful Switch (lvl 6 utility, MP - kind of overpowered, as it gives someone an extra turn once per encounter, but it's great for bumping the defender up in initiative order so they can mark things up).
Multi-target powers for the Warlord are very few and far between. You can either do what I did and just accept it and go for all single target stuff, or you can use your Wizard MC to power-swap for some good AoE stuff.

Feats: Don't train in heavy armor. I did (mostly for flavor reasons) and I'm regretting it. Hide has plenty of useful enchantments and there's other stuff to use your feats on.
Weapon Expertise is a must. Most of your stuff does nothing on a miss, and your buffs on action points don't work on yourself. You need as much hit bonus as you can squeeze out of your build.
Tactical Assault (PHB) - Your strikers will like you for this.
Martial Power has a lot of good warlord feats, including some racial ones. I'm AFB and I don't remember what the Tiefling feats in there do, but I know the Eladrin ones have been nice.

Sorry if that's a little incoherent, I'm on Vicadin and still in quite a bit of pain atm, but there's my two bits on Warlording. Have fun, it's a great class.

[Eorran]

I've played around with several Warlord builds, though I haven't had much opportunity to keep them for a long time yet. My 2cp:

I love the Tactical Warlord way more than the Inspiring Warlord; I'd rather make all the monsters dead first, then heal.

I'm currently playing a 2 PC campaign at 21st level with a TacLord (me) and a Rogue. It's pretty awesome synergy there. My damage maxes out at about half the Rogue's, but I can make sure she almost always has combat advantage, and I can often give her an extra attack (with CA).
So, make friends with your gnome. Defenders and Controllers get a lot less benefit from the Warlord than Strikers, AFAIK.

I'll also echo the advice to get your attack bonus as high as you can; few Warlord powers do anything on a miss.

You might want to consider MC Fighter instead of Wizard or Warlock, depending on your character; you'll be in the front lines all the time, and that little bit extra can go a long way. I love the Kensei paragon path (in Fighter) for a +4 to damage with your selected weapon, but that doesn't show up until lvl 16.

It's hard to say about boosting your AC; I get hit frequently, but I'd have to trade in about half my feats in order to get a decently improved AC. Currently using chainmail (once you get to masterwork versions it's less of a gap between hide + Int and just chainmail), I took specialization in armor and shield.

I'm just resigned to the fact that I will get hit, and often; Inspiring Word lets me heal as a minor action, so I'll live (I hope) with that.

[Dizlag]

I didn't see anyone mention this to you before, but if you're using a shield (Light or Heavy), you get the shield bonus to your Reflex defense as well.

[Asbestos]

Curse the lack of DDI/Dragon material. There's an article in Dragon 369 specifically for Tiefling Warlords, especially those that MC Warlock (Infernal Pact)

[Swordguy]

Curse the lack of DDI/Dragon material. There's an article in Dragon 369 specifically for Tiefling Warlords, especially those that MC Warlock (Infernal Pact)

Yeah, well...none of us feel that a subscription-based service to get better gear/abilities/etc is good for anyone but WotC's accountants - especially the DM, who's table rule is that he needs to have complete access to any source you're pulling data from, and who HATES DDI with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns.

And thanks, Dizlag. We're "really" playing for the first time tomorrow, so I'll be sure to find that in the PHB and let the DM know (first session was a "get to know the PCs" sort of game).

[Dizlag]

It's on page 213-214 under "Shield Types" and again under "Reading The Armor Table" page 214 where it says:

Shield Bonus: Shields provide this bonus to AC and Reflex defense.

It's a nice little bump and another reason to take a "board" with that sword.

Have fun tomorrow night!

Dizlag

[its_all_ogre]

Yeah, well...none of us feel that a subscription-based service to get better gear/abilities/etc is good for anyone but WotC's accountants - especially the DM, who's table rule is that he needs to have complete access to any source you're pulling data from, and who HATES DDI with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns. )

i have ddi and it gives full access to all monsters, all feats, all powers, all classes in fact all everything that is ever and will ever be released for 4e.
including all books.
for what £30? i fail to see how that is not good value.
a single rulebook would cost me £15-20 anyway...?
anyway warlords are awesome, resourceful have some cool things going for them, but tactical are my favourite in theory. i'm playing an inspiring one atm though, lots of powers boost damage directly for the entire party which is always good.
if you get a chance a vanguard weapon is what you want. +d8 damage on every charge is nice and the daily power is nails with a good charisma, my group mopped up a level +2 encounter in 2 rounds when i used that power!!
(there are 6 of us and everyone used action points that round, but still!)

[The Valiant Turtle]

A question regarding treasure: Are you not using the standard disenchant and enchant item rules in 4E (aka throw gold at your stuff and it becomes magic), or do you just not have anyone in the group with the rituals? If not, you might want to try to learn them at some point.

[Swordguy]

A question regarding treasure: Are you not using the standard disenchant and enchant item rules in 4E (aka throw gold at your stuff and it becomes magic), or do you just not have anyone in the group with the rituals? If not, you might want to try to learn them at some point.

Good question. The Druid's our only ritual-capable person right now, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't get those rituals.

I'll check tomorrow.