Good Cleric, Bad Domain

[tenshiakodo]

A friend of mine is playing in another DM's homebrew campaign, which features a neutral-aligned Death God who boasts the Death Domain. He's playing a Neutral Good Cloistered Cleric, and naturally picked up Death as his choice.

Problem? Some of the spells on his Domain list are EVIL. Casting them would be evil acts, yet they are granted by a neutral God. Nevertheless, he's now wondering if he can use those spells or not.

Do you really get penalized by casting evil spells granted by your supposedly uncaring God? The rules are silent, and I realized a Cleric of a non-specific deity could be Good and acquire the Death Domain as well by RAW, yet nothing is said about this.

Good Clerics can't have the Evil Domain, but they can have Death; it makes no sense to me. Does this mean Good Gods can't have Death as a Domain?

The obvious solution would be to substitute the spells in question, of course, or put something like Repose or Renewal Domains into play, but I'm curious what other people think about this bizarre rules tangle.

[sofawall]

Do the spells have to be with the cleric's alignment, or the gods? I forget.

As for Clerics of, say, Death (godless) that were good, it is true they wouldn't be able to cast any [Evil] spells.

[TheCountAlucard]

A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

I think this statement is sufficiently vague enough in terms of interpretation that it could really go either way.

[Talic]

I believe that or is inclusive, not exclusive. Thus, you must abide by both the deity and your alignments.

[Rowsen]

If I remember correctly, one cannot have a true neutral god as his cleric's deity unless his character is also true neutral. Also, I think spells are restricted by alignment, not deity. I may be wrong though, I haven't read the PH in a while.

[pingcode20]

Well, I'd say that if the Good Cleric is capable of taking the domain with Evil spells (ie. not actually taking the Evil domain), then the Cleric should be able to cast the spells on the domain list without issue. Normal Cleric Spells would still be barred, but given that the domain has been chosen, it should be no issue.

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@Rowsen:

It's Cleric can't be TN unless Deity is TN, not the other way around.

[Gaiyamato]

If he was playing a true neutral cleric he would have been fine.
His only other option is to be a hellbred from FCII.

Aside from that, nope he cannot cast evil spells if they are against either his or his own god's alignment. So for example a Neutral Good cleric of a Lawful Evil God (wtf? That isn't even allowed... but let us just SAY it is for this example!) could not do the following:

Cast Chaos spells because his god is lawful.
Cast Good spells because his god is evil.
Cast Evil spells because he is good. (Though strictly speaking he can, his alignment would change gradually however. Though there are absolutely no mechanics for that, it is entirely up to the DM.)

He may however cast lawful spells because the god allows them and he is neutral. If he was Lawful Good this would also be true.

To sum up. In order to cast an aligned spell or trigger an aligned item both his and his gods alignment cannot contain anything opposed on the appropriate axis. True Neutral clerics of a True Neutral God can cast whatever they damn please.

[Avilan the Grey]

I think basically it's an obvious case of Rule Zero since the Alignment system is acting up again:

I think it would be perfectly obvious that a True Neutral god of Death (which to me is actually the logical alignment for such a god) could give his clerics any death-centered spell he likes.

...Maybe a balance act? How about this: Allow him all Evil spells he wants, as long has he picks the same amount of Good (is there any spells that are good in that domain?) or at the very least Neutral spells?

[Gaiyamato]

Here is the death domain, which is actually slightly silly really:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists...tm#deathDomain

Here is what I would use for a True Neutral God of Death:

Same power, power is fine as it is. Though it's uses would be more limited for a Good aligned character.

1. Deathwatch: Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
2. Status: Monitors condition, position of allies.
3. Speak with Dead: Corpse answers one question/two levels.
4. Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
5. Raise Dead: Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
6. Undeath to Death: Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
7. Resurrection: Fully restore dead subject.
8. Symbol of Death: Triggered rune slays nearby creatures.
9. True Resurrection: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

[Dhavaer]

Isn't Deathwatch [Evil]? It shouldn't be, but that's kind of the point of the thread, right?

[Dixieboy]

I think basically it's an obvious case of Rule Zero since the Alignment system is acting up again:

I think it would be perfectly obvious that a True Neutral god of Death (which to me is actually the logical alignment for such a god) could give his clerics any death-centered spell he likes.

...Maybe a balance act? How about this: Allow him all Evil spells he wants, as long has he picks the same amount of Good (is there any spells that are good in that domain?) or at the very least Neutral spells?

Just gonna bump in and say that i would prefer LN for a death god.

That is all.

[Gaiyamato]

Sorry, you are correct.

Swap it with Doom.

1. Doom: One subject takes -2 on attack rolls, saves, and checks.

But yeah, it shouldn't be. It should be a simple Necromancy spell. :P

[Curmudgeon]

Don't change the rules. Just change the Cleric's alignment to match the deity's, which is required anyway (as Rowsen pointed out). No more problems. Neutral clerics can cast Good, Evil, Chaotic, and Lawful spells.

[Gaiyamato]

Works as well. lol.

But I do like the idea of allowing a Good aligned God of Death still.

[Roderick_BR]

This is complex, yeah. In theory, you shouldn't be getting evil spells from your neutral deity if you are good. See Cuthbert(sp?) from Player's Handbook, for example. He's Lawful Neutral, but with an inclination for Good (as an extra demand, his followers can't be evil, nor choose to convert spells into harm spells or rebuke/control undead). Death should be more of a neutral concept, even the Player's list a death god as neutral. In fact, I think that the death domain shouldn't give spells like animate dead/create undead, since a death god would see it as "cheating" death, even more than rise death/ressurrection.
Your DM could, as people pointed out, home brew a better spell list.

[Blackjackg]

They made a special domain for just this situation. The Repose domain is exactly like the Death domain (including the same granted power), but without the evil spells. It's in Sandstorm, if you have access to it.

Alternatively, you're a cloistered cleric: you have two other domains to choose from. Just don't prepare the evil spells.

[Another_Poet]

He is allowed to cast the spells, and doing so will shift his alignment toward True Neutral instead of Neutral Good.

[tenshiakodo]

True that, but then they would continue, over time, to shift his alignment to Evil. Like I said, it's quite bizarre.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. It's easy to fix, it was just such a strange warp in the rules that I was suprised it hadn't been addressed previously. Sure, there's Repose, but come on, the Death Domain has been in Wee Jas's hands for how long? Just...odd.

[RTGoodman]

They made a special domain for just this situation. The Repose domain is exactly like the Death domain (including the same granted power), but without the evil spells. It's in Sandstorm, if you have access to it.

I don't know if it's the exact same, but there's also a Repose Domain in the SRD.

Repose Domain

The Repose domain is similar to the Death domain, but is granted by good-aligned deities whose clerics are barred from casting evil spells.
Granted Power

The character may use a death touch once per day. The death touch is a spell-like ability that is a death effect. The character must succeed at a melee touch attack against a living creature (using the rules for touch spells). When the character touches, roll 1d6 per his or her cleric level. If the total at least equals the creature’s current hit points, it dies.

Repose Domain Spells
1. Deathwatch
2. Gentle repose
3. Speak with dead
4. Death ward
5. Slay living
6. Undeath to death
7. Destruction
8. Surelife
9. Wail of the banshee

Oddly enough, it still has the [Evil] deathwatch, but it also has a unique spell found on no other list (surelife).

[ericgrau]

Well that's a possible fix at least. It seems like yes those spells are okay with his god but no they're not ok with his alignment. The solution I suppose would be to take spells from your 2nd domain on those levels or substitute death with repose.

[Another_Poet]

True that, but then they would continue, over time, to shift his alignment to Evil. Like I said, it's quite bizarre.

No, because presumably he acts Good otherwise and casts many spells with the [Good] descriptor (otherwise he wouldn't be Neutral Good to start with). So averaging out his overall good outlook & actions with use of some evil spells puts him squarely at True Neutral for the long-term.

[Steward]

I think it's also fair for a DM to choose to disregard the fluff text or anything else designating a spell as "Evil" when it suits the story. For example, I have no idea why the spell "Deathwatch" is designated as evil; all it does is allow "you can determine the condition of creatures near death within the spell’s range." How is that evil? It's strikingly similar to the spell status.

[Devils_Advocate]

They actually replaced Death with Repose on Wee Jas's list of domains in Living Greyhawk. Someone mentioned in some thread that she actually hates the undead. I guess that the Greyhawk version of her with all the setting history and whatnot is a bit more distinct than the little paragraph in the PHB.

Anyway, Neutral death deities should grant the Repose domain instead instead of Death, since that's pretty much what it's there for.

I think it's actually some sort of standard setup to have a Neutral Evil god of death who loves the undead and a Lawful Neutral god of death who hates the undead. That basically seems to be the case in both Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, anyhow.

Deathwatch shouldn't be [Evil]. It shouldn't have the rather stupid fluff that it has. There's nothing Evil or especially Evil-related about what it does, so just disregard that particular alignment descriptor.

[hamishspence]

Plus, its on the list of the Healer (must be Good) and the Slayer of Domiel (Falls if it ever commits an evil act, and according to BoED, BoVD, and Fiendish Codex 2, casting such a spell is an evil act)

I just chalk it up to an error in the PHB which has been ignored by later writers.

[Gaiyamato]

Plus, its on the list of the Healer (must be Good) and the Slayer of Domiel (Falls if it ever commits an evil act, and according to BoED, BoVD, and Fiendish Codex 2, casting such a spell is an evil act)

I just chalk it up to an error in the PHB which has been ignored by later writers.

That is all I do as well. There is nothing really evil about the spell. In fact for a healing focused good character it is really useful. Kind of turns you into a Battlefield 2 Style Medic. lol.

[mikeejimbo]

I always thought it was silly that Deathwatch was Evil.

"I'm going to see your health condition - with EVIL."

If anything it sounds like a good spell for triage to me.

But yeah, um, I just wanted to throw that in there.

[AstralFire]

I believe it's supposed to be a mistake.

[Steward]

I guess it could be twisted in an evil way.

"Hehee, you are in so much pain! Thanks to the power of DeATHWatCH! I can revel in your SUFFERING!"

[Assassin89]

This is complex, yeah. In theory, you shouldn't be getting evil spells from your neutral deity if you are good. See Cuthbert(sp?) from Player's Handbook, for example. He's Lawful Neutral, but with an inclination for Good (as an extra demand, his followers can't be evil, nor choose to convert spells into harm spells or rebuke/control undead).

Strange, I played a cleric of Cuthbert with the ability to convert spells into harm spells or rebuke/control undead. My DM ruled that Cuthbert prefers good to evil only because evil is more inclined to break the law.

[Yora]

I'd say the neutral deity offers all his clerics to cast some evil spells. If they use them, it's an evil act. and doing evil acts will turn a character evil over time. As the deity is neutral, he doesn't care if his clerics turn evil.