Two Weapon Fighting houserule

[tenshiakodo]

So I've been talking to my friend lately who's playing in another DM's game (same game as the Death Domain thread). The DM in question has some intriguing house rules.

One of which indirectly applies to TWF. Basically, in the DM's opinion, a double weapon is a two handed weapon that can be used "as if it were two weapons, but it is a single weapon". What this means is, a double weapon is enchanted normally, and both ends get the benefit.

It's not a total fix, of course, but it does make dual wield less expensive overall.

He then apparently goes on to say that Power Attack with a double weapon grants the same damage bonus as using a two handed weapon (-1 to hit for +2 damage) for either end.

Would this make double weapons overpowered, help the dual wielders out, or not matter?

Actually, on a related topic, it says that you may use a double weapon as if wielding a one handed and a light weapon, but obviously it's not a light weapon; does this mean you can normally power attack with both ends of a double weapon (at -1 for +1 damage)?

The rules always seemed a little goofy when they say things like "as if it were"; I once got into a heated debate on the Gleemax forums about Dervishes using Power Attack with a Scimitar based on similar language.

[Eldariel]

Well, it's a pisspoor fix if it means TWFers need to wield double weapons or suck. Certainly though, while it's directly contrary to the rules, allowing the whole double weapon to be enchanted at once would make them very strong for TWF (simply because you get to apply twice the bonuses to your attacks for the same cost).

As for the Power Attack, due to the natural -2 from dualwielding, it's not all that attractive for a normal TWFer (although pimping out your numbers with a Dervish or such could work out; toss in Melee Weapon Mastery and you're looking at +8 attack over normal around 15), but would be a kickass option to have. It's rather clear that by the rules you cannot normally treat dual weapons as both ends being two-handed simply because there's a PrC named "Revenant Blade" in Player's Guide to Eberron that gives the very ability as its capstone.

Treating them as one-handed for PA doesn't really break anything though (although I'm fairly sure the intent is that they're a light weapon and a one-handed weapon for such purposes too) since 1-for-1 PA sucks and even more so for TWF. It even seems quite sensible, since when dual wielding them, you're in effect using each end in 1 hand (but get light weapon penalties, go figure).


But yeah, I'd be vary of "fixing" TWF by pimping out double weapons, since that leaves the two-weapon fighting out dry still, only makes double weapons kick ass. That said, it wouldn't hurt anyone to give Double Weapons different advantages compared to two weapons.

[Talic]

If Dual wield got 1:2 PA starting, with more attacks? It'd be better as an Ubercharger.

[2xMachina]

Might be overpowered, but I think this fix helps TWF a lot.

TWF doubles your attack. You attack with your main then your off hand weapon with every attack (pretty much the epic TWF with just 1 feat). The TWF feats are weak. You need a lot of feats to TWF well. Now, if just 1 feat works it fully, it'll be good.

EDIT: Meh, ^ posts states it already.

[J.Gellert]

I just let characters wielding two weapons make one attack with each when taking a standard attack action or charge. They also gain an extra AoO in the round which has to be made with the second weapon.

No one minds, but if a player ever disagrees I'll tell him this: If a dual-wielding character doesn't use both his weapons in a round, then he's not really dual wielding, but rather a character that holds a sword one-handed, and something useless (torch? travel papers? a glass of cola?) in the other hand. So he's not really dual-wielding, but dual-holding.

I got the idea from Hydras, which are "worse" anyway.

[kamikasei]

A slight tangent to see what people think of this idea: since actual two-weapon fighting (as in, real two-weapon martial arts styles) commonly use the off-hand weapon (or alternate them) for defense rather than extra attacks, how would an added option that lets you use your off-hand weapon to parry (make an opposed attack roll against an incoming attack, use it as your AC for that attack - something like that, might need tweaking) against, say, as many attacks as your dex mod or something, stack up?

[Roderick_BR]

An interesting fix for double weapons, that usually sucks (spend a feat for a weapon, and pay for 2 anyway, better to save that feat and go normal 1-handed weapon/normal light weapon). I think I saw something on some book about making one end normal cost, and the other end half cost, allowing you to enchant each end as you want, but giving a discount for the double weapon feat cost.

About PA: I think you use the normal rules. One end you hit with 1:1, and the other is treated as a light weapon. Then you can attack with only one end, and it counts as a two-handed weapon. Again, I think I saw it on the site.
A particular house rule I use is that light weapons get 2:1 damage (as in, each -2 to attack gives +1 to damage), so when TWFighting, you can catch up with two-handed fighting some.

[#Raptor]

Nice fix.
I'd guess he probably didn't do the same thing to 2 light weapons since then one might just enchant 2 for half the regular price and then give one to a buddy.
This could be prevented this way by a DM:
Say they have magically bonded. When the two weapons are not in the same 5-ft square, they lose theyr magical enhancement.

Though its probably never gonna come up anyway. Very few classes use a single light weapon.

I just let characters wielding two weapons make one attack with each when taking a standard attack action or charge. They also gain an extra AoO in the round which has to be made with the second weapon.

Definitely a good houserule... and especially noticeable when characters only get 1 attack (so, for full BAB characters, level 1-5 - wich is where most games take place).

[tenshiakodo]

I mostly asked because I was thinking about adopting similar rules for my own campaigns. The idea that double weapons > any other option does have it's downside, but at the same time, other than the plain ol' staff, all the double weapons are Exotics anyway, so unless you want to be a Dwarf or a Gnome, you're down another Feat anyways.

Heh. What a concept, Dwarves and Gnomes being the kings of TWF.

Anyways, as far as Power Attack with the "off end" of a double weapon, you can do it with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, if nothing else. A character in my last campaign pulled this stunt off with his Dwarven Ranger, who liked to combo Power Attack with his Two Weapon Pounce, dual wielding (thanks to the Bracers from MIC) two Large Dwarven Waraxes (?!).

He wept tears of joy when the Sorcerer finally learned Enlarge. Optimized? No, but it was scary to see him throwing down with dual wielded 3d8 weapons nonetheless.

[Thespianus]

What about a house rule/feat update like this:

The feat "Two Weapon Fighting" gives you the effect of all three RAW feats, as long as you fulfil the requirements, that is Dex 15 for one off hand attack, BAB 6 or more + Dex 17 for two off hand attacks, and BAB 11 or more + Dex 19 for three off hand attacks.

The feat "Power Two Weapon Fighting" (Prereq: TWF, Str 13) gives you the ability to dual wield one handed weapons as well as light weapons with only a -2/-2 penalty on attack rolls. You can Power Attack 1:1 with both your weapons (even if they are light), on a full attack, and 2:1 (as with a two handed weapon) on a charge with one of the weapons. You also get your full strength bonus to damage with both attacks. This feat counts as Power Attack for feats and PrCs that require Power Attack.

The feat "Rapid Two Weapon Fighting" (Prereq: TWF) gives you the ability to attack with both weapons as a standard action as long as both weapons are light or are used with the feat Weapon Finesse to get Dex-bonus on attack rolls instead of Str-bonus. This can not be used to gain two attacks with a weapon finessable double weapon, such as the Spiked Chain.

This way a TWF-character can get a bit of flexibility, with a strength based build, they can go the "power" route, and for Dex-based sneak attackers , there's the Rapid-TWF which will help them more than a Power-route would.

Opinions?

[Origomar]

Looks like the DM is Darth Maul.





Oh the bad puns.