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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Combination Attacks

    Hey Guys,

    I'm wondering about Combination Attacks and if they are possible in 3.5. I'm planning on taking Leadership with Imp Cohort so that it is 1 level lower than me instead of two. I want to know whether or not after we make our Initiative rolls one of us can ready an attack (the one who rolled higher), to go right before/after the other to create combo/chain like attacks.

    Like one making a "Defensive Throw/Imp Trip" sending the opponent into a second "Imp Trip/Flying Kick."

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Well, you could just delay until immediately after your ally acts. There's not really a "combo attack" option like in, say, Mutants & Masterminds. Closest you'd come is the Aid Another action, where one character attacks AC 10 instead of the enemy and if he hits it grants his ally's attack a +2.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    The Ready action is severely limited because you get only a single action (to which you can add a 5' step if the action isn't movement). It's generally better to just Delay. Rogues use this all the time to wait for their flanking partners (generally with poorer initiative) to get into position.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover View Post
    Like one making a "Defensive Throw/Imp Trip" sending the opponent into a second "Imp Trip/Flying Kick."
    Can you explain what this means?

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    Can you explain what this means?
    Have you ever played Dead or Alive or seen thier combination attacks? I sorta want to do the same thing. It would also be nice to try and get extra damage out of it too if I could.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Actual, fighting-game-style combo attacks are pretty much not an option in D&D. Your DM could rule something for you of course, but it's not part of the model of combat in the standard rules. There the idea is to combine different effects for synergy (get the cleric to buff the fighter and the wizard to blind the enemy, get the rogue to flank and have the melee pair fillet the target, that sort of thing). There are abilities, such as some stuff from the White Raven discipline in Tome of Battle, which let you grant an ally some advantage - say, you get a hit in and it gives your party mates a bonus to their attacks, or saps the target's AC - but even those are in the cooperation and set-up mold, not combo attacks.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover View Post
    Have you ever played Dead or Alive or seen thier combination attacks? I sorta want to do the same thing. It would also be nice to try and get extra damage out of it too if I could.
    Then you need to talk to your DM, because no such thing exists in the rules.

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Could hit someone and then trip him with Knockdown qualify?

    Generally speaking, could attack + special attacks feats and actions qualify? We should search things like this?
    Last edited by Kaiyanwang; 2009-06-23 at 10:10 AM.
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    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    I must be having a bad day, because I don't quite understand...

    How does A making an attack on X, followed by B making a completely separate attack on B, qualify as a combination attack?

    I guess you could use two bull rushes to push someone off a ledge, but it'd be very hard to set up, since you have to push the target into line with your partner... 5 feet short and you've failed to set it up.

    Or one character could make an attack that leaves the opponent flat-footed, and the other could sudden strike them. It'd be easier to just flank and use sneak attack...

    Or you could trip an opponent, and your companion effectively gets +4 to hit.

    None of this seems to count as combo attacks, to me.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Beast Heart Adept seems custom made for what you want to do. Combine with a standard AoO/Trip/Whatever build, and you're set.

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    I must be having a bad day, because I don't quite understand...

    How does A making an attack on X, followed by B making a completely separate attack on B, qualify as a combination attack?

    I guess you could use two bull rushes to push someone off a ledge, but it'd be very hard to set up, since you have to push the target into line with your partner... 5 feet short and you've failed to set it up.

    Or one character could make an attack that leaves the opponent flat-footed, and the other could sudden strike them. It'd be easier to just flank and use sneak attack...

    Or you could trip an opponent, and your companion effectively gets +4 to hit.

    None of this seems to count as combo attacks, to me.
    Going by his mention of Dead or Alive before; those actually would count as combo attacks (it's just that the rules don't acknowledge the two characters working in tandem). Most of the DoA combination attacks I can remember had one character hit the opponent and set them up for their partner to come in and add in a bit more damage.

    IE: Character A grabs opponent X and throws him to one side of the arena, where A's parner, B, comes in and hit's X with a flying kick to the face.

    I have to agree with your earlier post though:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti
    Then you need to talk to your DM, because no such thing exists in the rules.
    By the rules, there's nothing that would award additional damage for this sort of combo. You could describe it as the two characters working in tandem, but rules-wise it'd just be one attack followed by another.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Flanking and aid another on attack rolls are both essentially D&D's "combo attacks." Two people working together in order get an opponent in a situation where heavier damage can be inflicted.
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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Stunning Fist and a Rogue nearby perhaps qualifies... The monk sets up the target for a sneak attack.

    Of course, if there's two people involved, they can just flank and sneak attacks are added anyway, so it's not going to be necessary most of the time.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Firkraag View Post
    Stunning Fist and a Rogue nearby perhaps qualifies... The monk sets up the target for a sneak attack.

    Of course, if there's two people involved, they can just flank and sneak attacks are added anyway, so it's not going to be necessary most of the time.
    Yeah, you're going to be flanking the target anyway. MAYBE stunning it (puny DC to resist) isn't going to affect the situation in any way.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    White Raven school from Tome of Battle also has some combo-attack type attacks. Flanking Maneuver and the ones that allow the initiator and their allies to charge come to mind.
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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Man, I want my Rampage Ghost and HTB Cannon in DnD
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    Yeah, you're going to be flanking the target anyway. MAYBE stunning it (puny DC to resist) isn't going to affect the situation in any way.
    Well, you can't always get into flanking position. Terrain (enemy in a corner) or a defensive box formation can limit or prevent flanking. Stunning fist is a reasonable tactic.

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Here's a good one: Colour Spray to stun in an area, and Shuriken Mastery (oriental adventures feat) to sneak attack everyone caught in it, perhaps repeatedly.

    Though... I don't seem to find the rule for throwing multiple shuriken at an opponent as a single attack in my 3.5 PH... was that 3rd only?

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Deadeye Shot

    You carefully line up a ranged attack, timing it precisely so that you hit your opponent when his guard is down. When your target is busy dealing with an ally's melee attack, you strike.

    Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +4, skirmish or sneak attack ability.
    Benefit: By firing just as your ally connects with a blow, you take advantage of the distraction to strike the same enemy when his guard is ruined. If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against your attack.
    Special: A fighter can select Deadeye Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

    Does anyone know if there is a Melee version of this feat?

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    I don't see why you couldn't just create one; change the requirements (Weapon Finesse, maybe). It's not going to be very useful, though. The main benefit of removing someone's Dex to AC is sneak attack (the point of the feat), and if you're attacking someone together in melee, you should be flanking and thus getting sneak attack anyway!

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Ok. This is sorta how I want to do this. If my cohort and I both had a melee attack like Deadey Shot I was hoping to do something like this..

    Enemy turn: An enemy makes a full charge at me and I use Hold the Line to get an AoO. I use that AoO to Imp Trip him. I succed. But instead of making him fall prone I somewhat throw him between my Cohort and I so that I can get an attack because of the Imp Trip and my Cohort can use the Melee Deadeyed Shot. But instead of a normal attack my Cohort uses Stunning Fist. (An elbow to the back of the head while a fist hits the face) I can then make a Sudden Strike (Ninja), Bull Rush to push him towards my cohort. With the Enemy's turn ending.

    Cohort's turn: She can tumble over the moving enemy with Acrobatic Backstab and use that AoO to Imp Trip, but instead of him being thrown to the the ground she land on his back legs and back to throw him into the air. Then comes her Full Attack, a spinning back kick to spin the enemy in mid air. I use the same attack with the Melee Deadeye Shot, though a Stunning Fist, a spin kick at the same time to make the enemy spin that much harder. My cohort takes advantage of the stun with her Sudden Strike and jump kick (Bull rush) in my direction while he is in mid air.

    My turn: I basically jump up at the same time she does to propel the enemy with a full attack flurry (Hurricane Kicks). Then since the enemy is still stunned she can make a shuriken Sudden Strike.


    I prolly could have done better on explaining what I ment but I'm at work and the boss keeps moving around :S
    Last edited by Fastmover; 2009-06-24 at 01:35 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    I'm having a hard time following what sort of actions are being taken. Sudden strike is just bonus damage when your opponent is flat-footed or denied Dex to AC. And sequencing attacks like that isn't really possible in the rules as they stand - only AoOs interrupt others' actions - so the DM would have to approve it. How do you use sudden strike on a bull rush? And why would you bull rush him at your cohort if your cohort is already in the adjacent square (able to make a melee attack)?

    You should probably play a game with a less restrictive, rigid, and boring combat mechanic than D&D if you want to do stuff like that - although even in D&D, I would think it's just fine to describe things as going just like you describe, even though the actions can not be taken in that order. (Your cohort can't "tumble over" an opponent bull rushed into her square, for instance, unless she can somehow tumble as a reaction or immediate action on your square, when the bull rush is resolved, etc.)

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    I forget which book has it, but there is a tactical feat called "Mass Archery" or something like that.

    It lets a group of archers delay their turns until they all fire simultaneously. For every archer that participates, they get a bonus to attack and damage.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    I'm having a hard time following what sort of actions are being taken. Sudden strike is just bonus damage when your opponent is flat-footed or denied Dex to AC. And sequencing attacks like that isn't really possible in the rules as they stand - only AoOs interrupt others' actions - so the DM would have to approve it. How do you use sudden strike on a bull rush? And why would you bull rush him at your cohort if your cohort is already in the adjacent square (able to make a melee attack)?

    You should probably play a game with a less restrictive, rigid, and boring combat mechanic than D&D if you want to do stuff like that - although even in D&D, I would think it's just fine to describe things as going just like you describe, even though the actions can not be taken in that order. (Your cohort can't "tumble over" an opponent bull rushed into her square, for instance, unless she can somehow tumble as a reaction or immediate action on your square, when the bull rush is resolved, etc.)

    The Sudden Strike wasn't on the Bull Rush, but used as a Bull Rush which gives the momentum it would take for my Cohort to perform that manuver. Flipping an opponent into the air from a standstill position is extreamly difficult.

    Also the interuption of the Enemy's attack came from my feat, "Hold the Line," "Imp Trip" and the attack I'm able to use because of "Imp Trip". My Cohort uses the "Melee Deadeye Shot" to use "Stunning Fist" which rendered the enemy unable to continue the attack.

    I don't see how my Cohort couldn't make that tumble over the enemy if it was in response to my action and it was her turn. I ment for the tumble to happen basically in unison with the Bull Rush.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    I forget which book has it, but there is a tactical feat called "Mass Archery" or something like that.

    It lets a group of archers delay their turns until they all fire simultaneously. For every archer that participates, they get a bonus to attack and damage.
    Is there anything like that for Melee?

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover View Post
    Is there anything like that for Melee?
    I definitely remember one for archery and one for casting.

    I think there might have been one in Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, or Dungeonscape that let a group do a concerted charge, though that might have been a teamwork trick rather than a feat.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover View Post
    The Sudden Strike wasn't on the Bull Rush, but used as a Bull Rush
    That's my point. Sudden strike isn't an action, it's bonus damage for certain situations. How do you use it "as a bull rush" ?

    The rest of your explanation, unfortunately, suggests some difficulty in communication. You're mixing up abilities with actions. For instance, I think you mean your cohort uses an attack of opportunity to make a melee attack (although she wouldn't actually get an AoO, since the opponent didn't take an action that provokes an AoO) that benefits from the melee version of Deadeye Shot (removing Dex bonus) and a use of the Stunning Fist feat. Since you're not actually providing your cohort anything to allow an AoO, that's just useless.

    In the situation you describe, it'd just be more effective for one of the characters (the one with the better BAB and Str, I guess) to move to an appropriate side of the opponent to set up flanking for later (preferrably using just a five-foot step), and trip the opponent (preferrably as the first attack in a full attack, maybe followed by a disarm - or that can be the AoO - and definitely regular damage-dealing attacks). The cohort then moves onto an opposite side of the opponent (preferrably as a five-foot step), benefitting from flanking and the -4 AC the opponent gets from being prone, and attacks using Stunning Fist (preferrably as part of a full attack, and even more preferrably with sneak attack, which only requires the flanking).


    Teamwork benefits are in PHB2 (mostly?), and Heroes of Battle has rules for volley firing and feats for shield-walling etc., FWIW.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    That's my point. Sudden strike isn't an action, it's bonus damage for certain situations. How do you use it "as a bull rush" ?
    Sudden Strike is an attack. I'm simply using the Bull Rush as the Attack. Just like you are able to use a "Stunning Fist" as a Sudden Strike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    The rest of your explanation, unfortunately, suggests some difficulty in communication. You're mixing up abilities with actions. For instance, I think you mean your cohort uses an attack of opportunity to make a melee attack (although she wouldn't actually get an AoO, since the opponent didn't take an action that provokes an AoO) that benefits from the melee version of Deadeye Shot (removing Dex bonus) and a use of the Stunning Fist feat. Since you're not actually providing your cohort anything to allow an AoO, that's just useless.
    Deadeye Shot gives you a chance to give a Sudden Strike when ever your ally makes a hit. My cohort has this ability so she can make that attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    In the situation you describe, it'd just be more effective for one of the characters (the one with the better BAB and Str, I guess) to move to an appropriate side of the opponent to set up flanking for later (preferrably using just a five-foot step), and trip the opponent (preferrably as the first attack in a full attack, maybe followed by a disarm - or that can be the AoO - and definitely regular damage-dealing attacks). The cohort then moves onto an opposite side of the opponent (preferrably as a five-foot step), benefitting from flanking and the -4 AC the opponent gets from being prone, and attacks using Stunning Fist (preferrably as part of a full attack, and even more preferrably with sneak attack, which only requires the flanking).
    What I described gave my chars all the benefits you described. Flanking, Prone and the Stunning fist, Sudden Strike and AoO. Mine was only more Rpish.
    Last edited by Fastmover; 2009-06-24 at 06:39 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover View Post
    Sudden Strike is an attack. I'm simply using the Bull Rush as the Attack. Just like you are able to use a "Stunning Fist" as a Sudden Strike.
    Ah, I must be confused about what you mean. I thought you meant a ninja's sudden strike, which is just bonus damage "whenever a ninja's target is denied a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class" (CAdv p. 8). What sudden strike are you referring to?

    Benefit: By firing just as your ally connects with a blow, you take advantage of the distraction to strike the same enemy when his guard is ruined. If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, and your ally succeeds, that target loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against your attack.
    Deadeye Shot just allows you to ready an attack to take advantage of the opponent losing Dex bonus to AC when your ally strikes them (allowing you to deal bonus damage with sudden strike or sneak attack).


    And the difference wasn't the RP; I had a lot of trouble figuring out what actions are being taken. I tried to depict a useful team tactic (using core stuff, at that) for dealing with an opponent with no need for weird throwing or provoking AoOs where none are provoked.

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Combination Attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    Ah, I must be confused about what you mean. I thought you meant a ninja's sudden strike, which is just bonus damage "whenever a ninja's target is denied a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class" (CAdv p. 8). What sudden strike are you referring to?
    I did mean the Ninja's Sudden Strike. Sudden Strike is bonus damage yes but it's bonus damage to an attack that you use. So which ever attack you use gains the bonus damage. I just happened to use the Bull Rush in this instance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    Deadeye Shot just allows you to ready an attack to take advantage of the opponent losing Dex bonus to AC when your ally strikes them (allowing you to deal bonus damage with sudden strike or sneak attack).
    Yes when my ally strikes them which means that they strike at the same time. Like the elbow to the back of the head and the Stunning fist to the face. The Stunning Fist would be the Sudden Strike hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti View Post
    And the difference wasn't the RP; I had a lot of trouble figuring out what actions are being taken. I tried to depict a useful team tactic (using core stuff, at that) for dealing with an opponent with no need for weird throwing or provoking AoOs where none are provoked.
    I see your example and how it requires me or my cohort to move into certain position in order to pull them off. But in my example I'm moving my opponent around and controlling his movements. Also I am not provoking any AoO where there weren't. All the attacks I made other than the first which was initiated by the opponent with my "Hold the Line," where Sudden Strikes. The reason I was able to make so many was because of the Sudden Strike hits gained from "Deadeye Shot."

    The first Sudden Strike came with the first Stunning Fist that my cohort made when I got my attack from the Imp Trip. While the Opponent was stunned my char got his Sudden Strike because he was stunned, the (Bull Rush). This happened all within the Opponent's turn.

    During my Cohorts turn she started her turn with an AoO gained by "Acrobatic Backstab" which also changed her attacking position. Basically if you know chess the king switches positions with the rook. She uses that AoO for the Trip/throw. During her Full Attack action my char gets to use his Sudden Strike because of either the opponent being air-born/prone or because of the "Deadeye Shot." Both work in this case. But since my Sudden Strike was a Stunning Fist my cohort gets her Sudden Strike because the opponent again become stunned. But the Sudden Strike is used as a bullrush like attack is all. Just like how my char initiated all this.

    Then during my turn I simply attack with a flurry of kicks in which my Cohort uses her Sudden Strike attack for the Deadeye Shot.


    So the mechanics work but it is just very fanciful. The only problem... is that I need to find/make a feat that is just like "Deadeye Shot" but Melee.

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