Strength Devotion

[Quietus]

In the feat Strength devotion, it says that "Once per day as a swift action, you can bypass hardness with your melee attacks for one minute. In addition, you gain ...", and then gives you a slam attack, and the ability to count your natural attacks as adamantium for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. If you already have a natural weapon, you use whichever damage value is higher, and you get a +2 circumstance bonus to damage rolls.


Via the wording of the feat, do I get everything after "In addition" at all times, or only when I have Strength Devotion active?

[Starbuck_II]

In the feat Strength devotion, it says that "Once per day as a swift action, you can bypass hardness with your melee attacks for one minute. In addition, you gain ...", and then gives you a slam attack, and the ability to count your natural attacks as adamantium for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. If you already have a natural weapon, you use whichever damage value is higher, and you get a +2 circumstance bonus to damage rolls.


Via the wording of the feat, do I get everything after "In addition" at all times, or only when I have Strength Devotion active?

Only while active. I'm sure it would mention if it was always active (feats usually do).

[BenTheJester]

Only while active. I'm sure it would mention if it was always active (feats usually do).

Well, in fact, when feats say "In addition" it means that the following part is different from the part they just mentionned.

So I would say that you get the "In addition" bonuses permanently

[SadisticFishing]

Depends if there's a period before the In addition.

In this case, the Slam attack is permanent.

[Keld Denar]

No, thats contradictory to how almost every other devotion feat (except Knowledge, but we already knew Knowledge was the odd ball) works. All the other follow the same format, and that is that they only work while active. To say that the slam attack is always active is wrong.

Its essentially a form of "hulking out" where you gain the ability to land heavy blows while under the influence.

Its really only good in a build where your hands are free as a source of an extra natural attack. I could see a Totemist having a LOT of fun with this.

[BenTheJester]

So you gain a feat, that you can use 1/day for 10 rounds? Great!

[Keld Denar]

All the other devotions are the same. Why should one be more permanant than the others?

And you can gain multiple uses of devotion feats by either taking them multiple times (bad) or expending TU attempts (GREAT!).

So, a Paladin of Kord could gain a slam attack multiple times a day since its not like hes actually gonna be using those TU attempts to actually...you know...turn undead?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Depends if there's a period before the In addition.

In this case, the Slam attack is permanent.

So it's temporary only if the feat description has horrible, mangled grammar and a gigantic run-on sentence?

That's not a very good basis.

I'd say that if the second half was intended to be permanent, it would be described before the part that has a duration; that would be very clear.

Edit: And yeah, I think we can assume all devotion feats are intended to function similarly, i.e. require you to activate them to gain the benefit(s).

[BenTheJester]

All the other devotions are the same. Why should one be more permanant than the others?

And you can gain multiple uses of devotion feats by either taking them multiple times (bad) or expending TU attempts (GREAT!).

So, a Paladin of Kord could gain a slam attack multiple times a day since its not like hes actually gonna be using those TU attempts to actually...you know...turn undead?

Oh I didn't know you could use TU attempts to fuel them, I really should have read the description before

[Quietus]

Hm. Seems the consensus is "only while active", then.. unfortunate. Would've lent well to a character idea I had, but he wouldn't have NEARLY enough uses to keep it active in every fight. Oh well.

The grammar does suggest otherwise - the "In addition" does come after a period, and the quoted bit in my first post is verbatim from the book. That's the only reason I asked.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The grammar does suggest otherwise - the "In addition" does come after a period, and the quoted bit in my first post is verbatim from the book. That's the only reason I asked.

I don't think the grammar suggests that at all. I think it would suggest it if the sentence went "You gain [things]. In addition, once per day as a swift action..."

[Quietus]

I don't think the grammar suggests that at all. I think it would suggest it if the sentence went "You gain [things]. In addition, once per day as a swift action..."

The way the wording is laid out, it says "Once per day as a swift action, you gain <things>. In addition, you get <these other things>". This is just poorly written, as it can be interpreted either as the "In addition" clause extending the first sentence, in which case the <other things> would fall under the swift action 1/day deal, or as the swift 1/day applying to <things>, but the feat ALSO giving you <other things> in addition to the previously limited abilities.

[Tsotha-lanti]

It's pretty much the only way to write that, though. I suppose a semicolon might have been better, but there you go.

[SadisticFishing]

Not at all! You guys are right, keep it in context - I haven't played 3.5 in over a year, so my memory of Devotion feats was fuzzy :P

It's terribly worded, from what I gather - no books near me though. Someone should quote it... D:

[Quietus]

Not at all! You guys are right, keep it in context - I haven't played 3.5 in over a year, so my memory of Devotion feats was fuzzy :P

It's terribly worded, from what I gather - no books near me though. Someone should quote it... D:

I quoted the portion we're discussing, in my first post. Let me put what I quoted in a quote bubble instead of quotations..

"Once per day as a swift action, you can bypass hardness with your melee attacks for one minute. In addition, you gain ...", and then gives you a slam attack, and the ability to count your natural attacks as adamantium for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. If you already have a natural weapon, you use whichever damage value is higher, and you get a +2 circumstance bonus to damage rolls.

I didn't quote the entire feat word for word, since that'd be wrong, but the portion inside the quotations (and now bolded) is verbatim from the book.

[Tengu_temp]

Let me do it for you, then.

Spoiler

Show

Strength Devotion
You can overcome an opponent's normal resistance to damage.

Benefit: Once per day as a swift action, you can bypass hardness with your melee attacks for 1 minute. In addition, you gain a slam attack as a natural weapon, and all your melee attacks (natural or not) gain the adamantine property for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
As a natural weapon, your slam attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It deals damage based on your size and character level, as given on the following table.
Character Level Damage (S) Damage (M) Damage (L)
1st-5th 1d4 1d6 1d8
6th-10th 1d6 1d8 2d6
11th-15th 1d8 1d10 2d8
16th-20th 1d10 2d6 3d6
If you already have a natural weapon, use whichever damage value is higher. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on any damage rolls you make with that weapon.
Special: You can select this feat multiple times, gaining one additional daily use each time you take it.
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each daily turn or rebuke use you expend.

Spoilered for length. The part I bolded clearly shows that the "in addition" bonus is active only when you use this feat, not permanently - because a feat that lets your unarmed attacks permanently count as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR would just be silly and overpowered.

[Sinfire Titan]

Spoilered for length. The part I bolded clearly shows that the "in addition" bonus is active only when you use this feat, not permanently - because a feat that lets your unarmed attacks permanently count as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR would just be silly and overpowered.

What?


I hate it when people don't want melee having nice things. Seriously. It's a slam attack that deals minor damage. Totemists do like it, but everyone else can only use it 1/round. Letting the slam attack+Adamantine be continuous isn't overpowered because you can't enchant unarmed strikes or natural weapons as easily as you can enchant a weapon. Unarmed combat gets only so much love if you don't play one of 3 specific builds. There's nothing wrong with letting a melee character have a backup weapon that costs a feat.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Spoilered for length. The part I bolded clearly shows that the "in addition" bonus is active only when you use this feat, not permanently - because a feat that lets your unarmed attacks permanently count as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR would just be silly and overpowered.

That part doesn't show anything at all, least of all clearly. You can infer things of it, but I don't think your inference is very accurate. A feat to give your melee attacks the adamantine trait (and that's all melee in Strength Devotion, not just unarmed) doesn't sound overpowered at all, especially if there's a prerequisite or two.

It's still temporary in this case, but that's because the "In addition" sentence is positioned after the duration is stated. If it were permanent, it'd be first, then the bit with an ability with duration. (This, of course, assumes competent editing, which is quite a leap, but then there's the whole "in line with the other devotion feats" part.)

[Keld Denar]

You think thats poorly worded? Flip open your copy of Complete Warrior to the Exotic Weapons Master and read the text under "Uncanny Blow". Then read it again, and again.

Then come back and tell me whether or not you get 2:1 Power Attack, and how many hands you need to get it. I don't think I've ever seen a consensus on this one. Not even CLOSE to a consensus. The text is soooooo contradictory, its not even funny. Why would the text include the whole 2:1 PA sentance if you are wielding it 2handed, since thats redundant with the rules for PA in the PHB. But who whole rest of the ability is centered around wielding a 1handed exotic weapon in both hands...which leads to...

MADNESS!!!!!!!

[Quietus]

Let me do it for you, then.

Spoiler

Show

Strength Devotion
You can overcome an opponent's normal resistance to damage.

Benefit: Once per day as a swift action, you can bypass hardness with your melee attacks for 1 minute. In addition, you gain a slam attack as a natural weapon, and all your melee attacks (natural or not) gain the adamantine property for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
As a natural weapon, your slam attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It deals damage based on your size and character level, as given on the following table.
Character Level Damage (S) Damage (M) Damage (L)
1st-5th 1d4 1d6 1d8
6th-10th 1d6 1d8 2d6
11th-15th 1d8 1d10 2d8
16th-20th 1d10 2d6 3d6
If you already have a natural weapon, use whichever damage value is higher. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on any damage rolls you make with that weapon.
Special: You can select this feat multiple times, gaining one additional daily use each time you take it.
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each daily turn or rebuke use you expend.

Spoilered for length. The part I bolded clearly shows that the "in addition" bonus is active only when you use this feat, not permanently - because a feat that lets your unarmed attacks permanently count as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR would just be silly and overpowered.

You do realize that DR is not the same as hardness, right? So you get a slam attack (minor, and if you're using it you aren't two-handing your weapon, logically, so it's not going to break anything) and the ability to bypass the DR of a couple of golems. How is this "silly and overpowered" again?

You think thats poorly worded? Flip open your copy of Complete Warrior to the Exotic Weapons Master and read the text under "Uncanny Blow". Then read it again, and again.

Then come back and tell me whether or not you get 2:1 Power Attack, and how many hands you need to get it. I don't think I've ever seen a consensus on this one. Not even CLOSE to a consensus. The text is soooooo contradictory, its not even funny. Why would the text include the whole 2:1 PA sentance if you are wielding it 2handed, since thats redundant with the rules for PA in the PHB. But who whole rest of the ability is centered around wielding a 1handed exotic weapon in both hands...which leads to...

MADNESS!!!!!!!

I do so love WotC sometimes.