Chain Fighter

[raptor1056]

So, I have, for quite some time, wanted to cut back and play the beater. However, my party always wants me to play the wizard, as I am the only one in the party who enjoys spellcasting characters. Recently, though, my DM has generated a no-magic game, leaving me the option of relaxing and beating some face. I want to play a spiked chain fighter, but don't really know what the best route to a character like this is. Note-- fighter may be misleading. I do not refer specifically to the class, but rather to a character who fights, regardless of base class. I simply assumed that fighter is the best route by which to reach this goal. So, my question is this: What is the best way to become a powerful spiked chain combatant?

[AslanCross]

The only feats you absolutely need are Combat Expertise (req for Improved Trip), Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes.

Stand Still and Hold the Line help, but IMO are not absolutely necessary.

While Fighter accelerates the build due to bonus feats, you could also take Martial Adept levels---either Swordsage or Warblade---so you don't end up being a one-trick pony.

Warblade's class features would synergize well with the 13 Int you need to get Combat Expertise, which is required for Improved Trip, and also help you qualify for Fighter-only feats later (not that they're really important). Apart from that, Warblade doesn't offer much apart from Disarming Strike (which is another thing that a chain fighter can do quite well if you want lots of AOO-generating combat maneuvers).

Swordsage, on the other hand, would make for a much more MAD build, but it gives you easy access to the Shadow Hand discipline, and you can also afford to dump Strength, as the Shadow Blade feat adds your Dex bonus to damage rolls while in a Shadow Hand stance. Of course, you could just keep Strength and Dex high and get both your Str x1.5 bonus and your Dex bonus added to damage rolls. After all, it would be nice to trip your opponents and THEN whack them hard, so that when (and if) they get back up, they're a lot easier to kill.

[FMArthur]

Step One: Large race or Powerful Build race
Step Two: EWP(Spiked Chain)
Step Three: Improved Trip
Step Four: Combat Reflexes
Step Five: Increase size and strength with magic
Step Six: Find ways to permanently increase size
Step Seven: Enter resession filled with Tumble and progressively larger, many-legged creatures

[Keld Denar]

Um, PsyWar is often great of Spiked Chain wielders. Expansion + reach = LARGE area of lockdown. Unfortunately, as your size goes up, you dex goes down, which naturally inhibits Combat Reflexes. Luckily, PsyWar comes included with the Prowass power, which gives you an additional AoO at the low low cost of a couple PPs.

Other than that, a 2 level Crusader dip is fun. Ticket of Blades is wonderful when you can cover a large area, and that + Standstill makes it really tough for bad guys to move around you.

A lot of people will recommend Imp Trip, but honestly, stat wise and viability wise, its really not worth it, IMO, except in very medium-humanoid centric games as things tend to get too big and too strong too fast.

[DamnedIrishman]

I'd say go with a half-ogre fighter with Combat Reflexes, making heavy use of Spring Attack.

[ChaosDefender24]

Stand Still is incredible, Large and in Charge is less effective but you don't lose the ability to do damage

[Ponce]

Goliath Fighter level 6, 2 Flaws

Dungeoncrasher Alternate Class Features

Flaw1: Power Attack
Flaw2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
Level 1: Improved Bull Rush
Fighter: Knockback

Level 3: Combat Expertise

Fighter: Improved Trip

Level 6: Knock-Down

Get a free trip and bull rush against pretty much every opponent you attack.

[Korivan]

forget the spiked chain...monk with vow of poverty...and if gestalt, fighter/monk with vow of poverty...i know...broken...but fun

[Curmudgeon]

Favored Soul worshiping Kossuth, whose weapon is the spiked chain. Get free

• Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
• Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
• Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)

plus all good saves, and wings for flight.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget Power Attack from your generic Spiked Chain-build; especially in no magic world, it's a golden source of damage. And yeah, either go Dungeoncrasher Fighter [Dungeonscape] with Knockback [RoS] or Driving Attack [PHBII], or go Fighter 2/Barbarian X for massive Str. Add Improved Trip + Knock-Down [SRD] and Power Attack > Shock Trooper [CWar] > Leap Attack [CAdv], and you'll be fine.

The best option would of course be to get Martial Adept-levels as your primary levels. Fighter 6 (Dungeoncrasher)/Warblade 14 would be pretty nice, for example, or Barbarian 2 (Wolf-Totem Whirling Frenzy trading speed bonus for Pounce [CChampion])/Warblade 18 if Dungeoncrasher is unavailable.

[Keld Denar]

forget the spiked chain...monk with vow of poverty...and if gestalt, fighter/monk with vow of poverty...i know...broken...but fun

I see that you are new from your Druid thread yesterday, and thats cool and all. The only thing broken about a VoP Monk is the fact that it is totally terribad. Monk is bad, because its a poorly built class. VoP is bad because it cripples your character to lose access to the magical gear he needs to remain viable at many different levels of play. Combined, they aren't addative, but rather multaplicative. So, you have terribad^2, in all actuality. If you have any doubts about this, just do a forum search for either VoP or Monk (or both) and observe the HUGE laundry list of reasons, the foremost being that Monks are MORE dependant on gear than every other class in the game.

Just trying to help you learn the ropes!

[Korivan]

I see that you are new from your Druid thread yesterday, and thats cool and all. The only thing broken about a VoP Monk is the fact that it is totally terribad. Monk is bad, because its a poorly built class. VoP is bad because it cripples your character to lose access to the magical gear he needs to remain viable at many different levels of play. Combined, they aren't addative, but rather multaplicative. So, you have terribad^2, in all actuality. If you have any doubts about this, just do a forum search for either VoP or Monk (or both) and observe the HUGE laundry list of reasons, the foremost being that Monks are MORE dependant on gear than every other class in the game.

Just trying to help you learn the ropes!

except in low-to-no magic campaigns

And i know lots of people hate monks, think they suck, but hey, its not all about the numbers, like this guy, its about the style

[Thanatos 51-50]

Every other poster has been adressing 3.x, but I don't think anybody has asked the important "What Edition?" question.

This is also where I point out that no-magic is entirely possible within 4e by simply removing and disallowing the Arcane power source.

Edit: Oh, yeah, 4e advice.
This advice assumes you have DDI or access to Dragon 372 (Playing Shadar-Kai) and the PhB2
1) Take a Martial Class. This is an absolute nessecity for Everything else listed.

You Want Spiked Chain Training at first level, this gives you proficency, and lets you treat the Chain as a light blade and a double weapon. This makes it viable for Rogues (As you can now use Sneak Attack), and you're now holding on to the best light blade in the PhB.

Humans will want to take Weapon Expertise (Light Blade), as well.
Shadar-Kai may or may not wish to take advantage of Expert Chainfighter (It looks pretty bleh to me.)

Regardless, picking up Weapon Expertise Light Blade (or Flail) is something all races will want to do by level 2, for obvious reasons.

Take the Power Swap Feat (Spiked Chain Novice) at Level 4. Seriously, guys, Chain Trip is an awesome power, which remains totally viable in the upper levels (Don't re-train it out!)
Spiked Chain Expert is a good thing to look at at level 6. If it's better than the Utility power your replacing it with, and I admit to not being very well-studied in utility powers at that level. (Fighters - it works well with Combat Challange, Rogues - it opens up Flanking at reach)
Remember, next time you can take a power, it's always possible to take a lower-level power of the same type, too. So if you really want Chain Ward and that Utility Power, you CAN get them both.

It should go without saying that I also heartily endorse completeing the Feat Tree with Spiked Chain Specialist, as the power it gives is pretty sweet, as well.

Other feats will heavily rely on your class, race, and role, but I encourage taking Vexing Flanker if you're a rogue, which, when combined with Chain Ward makes you Everyone's flanking buddy and greatly encourages people to let you flank a high-value target.

[Curmudgeon]

except in low-to-no magic campaigns

If there's really no magic, do note that many benefits of Vow of Poverty don't work, either. AC Bonus, Exalted Strike, Deflection, and Damage Reduction are all Supernatural. Plus all Exalted feats are Supernatural as well.

Vow of Poverty sucks without magic, too.

[Faleldir]

except in low-to-no magic campaigns

You didn't say anything about psionics... Monk2/Psiwarrior18 does it better with no items and the same flavor.
Oh no, not another Monk thread! The last one isn't even locked yet!

[Keld Denar]

Its ok. I just wanted him to know that in general, in an advice thread, its generally bad form to give the worst possible advice...possible.

And flavor/style is completely independant of character build. I've seen well built characters played masterfully, and I've seen poorly built characters with "style" poorly roleplayed. I've also seen the converse.

Again, this is friendly criticism. Posting hear is fun, but giving bad advice generally confuses people. VoP is bad in nearly every situation. It just is. Others have expounded on it WAY better than I could here. Take a look yourself.

[Myrmex]

Favored Soul worshiping Kossuth, whose weapon is the spiked chain. Get free

• Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
• Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
• Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)

plus all good saves, and wings for flight.

And, more importantly, spells. Otherwise, fighter 4 gets you the same things, but with a bigger HD and more BAB for power attacking.

[sofawall]

Fighter lacks saves and wings.

[Myrmex]

Fighter lacks saves and wings.

Fighter is a 4 level class.

[Zaq]

Dungeoncrasher Fighter is a 6 level class.

Fixed, if I might be so bold.

[Triaxx]

Nah, you want to fight with a chain, in a game without crowd control, or save-or-x's? Then you want this:

Human Fighter, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Combat Reflexes.

Now you can wade into the fray and leave a massive wake of destruction, because Cleave works even after an AoO.

[Faleldir]

If you have high DEX and a ton of feats, you could dual-wield kusari-gama and take Double Hit for even more AOO goodness.

[herrhauptmann]

Human Rog 1: Exotic weapon prof, Jotunbrud
Ftr 1: Combat expertise
Ftr 2: Imp. Trip, Combat ref
Ftr 4: Vexing flanker +4 when flanking
Ftr 5: Adaptable flanker Grant flanking form any square you threaten
Ftr 6: Deft Opportunist +4 on AOO
Ftr8: Vae School (drow of underdark), Weapon focus (prereq for Vae school)
After this, I'd have gone exotic weapon master. I wrote this character up level 9, but never played past 5.

Notes:
-The rogue level was more for the skill points, and the fact that the party rogue was inexperienced. Rather than tell him what to do, I just did it, and had him learn by example.

-Also, this char, while fairly hardhitting, does not have power attack. Thus, no cleave. This is normally a weakness, but the party I was in had 2 other characters with much higher attack bonuses, and far more damage per hit. I was there for the lockdown build and as support. Like giving the entire party flanking bonuses against the 2 Fang Dragons, AND alternately granting the goliath knight or neanderthal barbarian an extra +2 to hit with the Aid another option. I needed a 19 or 20 to hit for damage, and never bothered trying opposed strength checks against either dragon.

-If you're going to do tripping, then get the skill tricks which allow you to stand from prone as soon as possible. Once you've got those, you can lock your gauntlet to your weapon, preventing a fumble from causing you to drop it, or from getting disarmed if you fail your trip attempt. Now you just fall and stand as a free action (no AOO)

-If you're human sized, tripping gets subpar around level 10 (depending on DM), because monsters get a +4 for every size category larger than you. And their strength goes through the roof, faster than you can buff with items or level increases. Though a half ogre warhulk, would give you that bonus to strength, at the cost of several other things.

-In rules compendium, it says that you CAN trip flying creatures.

Edit: Here's the link to the thread where I was originally discussing this build
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93094

Edit the Edit: Jotunbrud is a human only feat in Faerun. You count as large when it is beneficial to you, such as grapple, trip, sunder, and deciding if there's enough room in the purple worms stomach for you or not.

[Keld Denar]

Build above is pretty good. The 1 level of rogue is nice in that it qualifies you for Staggering Strike from Complete Warrior. If you can get your damage up high enough, your opponent can't make the save, and therefore every hit causes your foe to be aflicted by the Staggered condition, which is essentially Slowed. Thats great!

[#Raptor]

Another race option would be the Goliath.
A regular goliath just got powerful build, but a raging goliath barbarian (with the racial substitution level in RoS) actually becomes large - and gets the extra reach... and +6 str for raging, instead of the normal +4.
So, take extra rage for raging 3 times/day and go to town.

The only drawbacks are LA 1 and -2 dex.

[herrhauptmann]

Build above is pretty good. The 1 level of rogue is nice in that it qualifies you for Staggering Strike from Complete Warrior. If you can get your damage up high enough, your opponent can't make the save, and therefore every hit causes your foe to be aflicted by the Staggered condition, which is essentially Slowed. Thats great!

I totally didn't think of that one, or anything else which utilized sneak attack as a prereq. Sweet.
So that also opens up Craven as a good source of damage at high levels. +1 damage per character level on a hit when you sneak attack. And there's Vae School making it more important that you gain a sneak attack/flank than before.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Favored Soul worshiping Kossuth, whose weapon is the spiked chain. Get free

• Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
• Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
• Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)

plus all good saves, and wings for flight.

No spellcasting original poster say. No magic.

[Origomar]

I'd say go with a half-ogre fighter with Combat Reflexes, making heavy use of Spring Attack.

lol i was just waiting for that.

[Anxe]

Swashbucklers from Complete Warrior get free proficiency with spiked chain. Might be a good idea to take your first level there.

EDIT:

No they don't?

[Eldariel]

Swashbucklers from Complete Warrior get free proficiency with spiked chain. Might be a good idea to take your first level there.

No they don't?