Replacements for some classes

[Cicciograna]

I'm up to begin a new campaign and I decided to make some substitutions in core classes: I plan to leave primary casters (i.e. Wizards, Clerics and Druids) in place, adopting UA Spell Points variant, discarding Sorcerers and nerfing some spells to keep them not too powerful; I'm going to incorporate ToB classes, substituting Paladins with Crusaders and Fighters with Warblades, maybe dropping Rangers.
This leaves me with Barbarians, Bards, Monks and Thieves to cope with: Barbarians seem fit to coexist with ToB combatants and Bards are cool, but I could have some problems with Monks and Thieves (especially the former). Are there any variant classes, or improvements to these two classes, that would keep them on a similar power level as the others?
I thought to transform Monks in a ToB class, dropping some of its class features and giving it access to two or three Martial Schools (maybe Unarmed-fighting ones), perhaps with Warblade learning ratio and Swordsage recover method; what do you think?

[Duke of URL]

Monk --> Unarmed Swordsage.

Not only does it make sense, it what it was designed for.

Rogue --> Swordsage w/ alternate (homebrew) class features.

I'd drop all of the Swordsage's class features (other than maneuvers and stances) and replace them with Rogue-like features such as trapfinding and sneak attack (probably at a slower progression than straight Rogue). You may also want to limit which disciplines a Rogue can take maneuvers/stances from.

[AslanCross]

Just use the unarmed Swordsage variant for Monks. Adaptation guidelines are given in the Swordsage entry. They get Monk unarmed strike progression and lose Light Armor proficiency. They still get to use funky Swordsage weapons like the spiked chain if they take the EWPs.

Rogues--leave them as is. They multiclass well with the Swordsage and do their own stuff quite well.

[Flickerdart]

Unarmed Swordsage is the Monk that works. Rogues are also fairly powerful if optimized, but you can use the Factotum to replace them as a skill-monkey, easy. Or Beguiler.

[Tengu_temp]

There's an unarmed swordsage variant - use this instead of monks. You could replace rogues with factotums, but some people might still want to play a rogue for sneak attack.

[Pie Guy]

Swordsages can replace Rogues with Shadowhand,or you could just add shadowhand progression to the Rogue class.

Monks should be replaced with unarmed Swordsage, which can be found in the adaption section under Swordsage.

Edit: Wow, ninja'd four times. Just. . . wow.

[kamikasei]

Rogues aren't too bad as they are, though with the lower-power core classes gone they'll be less balanced. Still, they'll have a niche and be able to contribute in combat, especially if you give them appropriate weapon enhancements or augments or that Dungeonscape ACF to help them against crit-immune foes. If you think they're too lackluster, you could replace them with Factotums.

Monk -> Unarmed Swordsage is the obvious solution and a very viable one.

I would actually suggest nerfing down the primary casters while you're at it: oblige Druids to use the PHB II shapshifting variant, replace Wizards with Psions, replace Clerics with either Cloistered Clerics or Ardents.

[Doc Roc]

Rogues are very powerful, but can be replaced with factotum for hilarity's sake and the confused look on your players' faces.

Holy. Crap. Ninjas are fast here!

[Tengu_temp]

Despite what the actions (not words) of everyone in this thread seem to be suggesting, do not replace rogues with ninjas - they're actually weaker in general.

[Flickerdart]

Rogues are very powerful, but can be replaced with factotum for hilarity's sake and the confused look on your players' faces.

Holy. Crap. Ninjas are fast here!

Well, we are talking about Rogue/Monk replacements.

However, don't replace the Rogue with the Ninja. The Ninja is awful.

Edit:...ninjaed. Of course.

[Cicciograna]

Monk -> Unarmed Swordsage

I think this substitution is a bit too drastical, since the resulting Monk would lack many nice feature the original Monk has, such as the Speed bonus or the various immunities, which I like.

I would actually suggest nerfing down the primary casters while you're at it: oblige Druids to use the PHB II shapshifting variant, replace Wizards with Psions, replace Clerics with either Cloistered Clerics or Ardents.

The Shapeshifter is, actually, nice.
I like Wizards too much to substitute them.
Personally, I don't like Cloistered Clerics and, BTW, where can I find Ardents?

Rogues are very powerful, but can be replaced with factotum for hilarity's sake and the confused look on your players' faces.

The same, where are Factotums?

Despite what the actions (not words) of everyone in this thread seem to be suggesting, do not replace rogues with ninjas - they're actually weaker in general.

Not only they're weaker, but I don't like them, so no problem here.

[kamikasei]

I think this substitution is a bit too drastical, since the resulting Monk would lack many nice feature the original Monk has, such as the Speed bonus or the various immunities, which I like.

Well, there are various "Sublime Monk" homebrews on these very boards if you poke around a bit, so you should be able to find one that preserves the features you like.

Personally, I don't like Cloistered Clerics and, BTW, where can I find Ardents?

The same, where are Factotums?

Ardents are in Complete Psionic. Factotums are in Dungeonscape.

[Flickerdart]

Both Frank & K's Monk and Fax Celestis' Monk are quite awesome homebrews.

[Doc Roc]

Let me just vouch for the fantastic power and flavor of the ardent, as well as the fact that compared to the cleric it's a beautifully balanced class. :S

There's also the Oriental Adventures ninja, IE the good ninja.

[AmberVael]

While replacing the core fighter-type classes with ToB classes is generally a good idea which I support, there is one lack in particular which you might want to deal with...

Namely, the ability to make an archer type character.

ToB is great and all, but it is about melee. Not archery. Now, I think there are some homebrew things that incorporate new archery type styles, but you may not want to go that route, and I can't link you to any of it anyways, as I am mostly unfamiliar with that stuff.

But do note that if someone wants to make an archer, you might want to have a good option for them available besides "Zen Archer Cleric" or something (not that it is a bad option, it's just... not always what someone is looking for).

[Cicciograna]

Ardents are in Complete Psionic. Factotums are in Dungeonscape.

Thank you.

Both Frank & K's Monk and Fax Celestis' Monk are quite awesome homebrews.

And thank you too.

While replacing the core fighter-type classes with ToB classes is generally a good idea which I support, there is one lack in particular which you might want to deal with...

Namely, the ability to make an archer type character.

ToB is great and all, but it is about melee. Not archery. Now, I think there are some homebrew things that incorporate new archery type styles, but you may not want to go that route, and I can't link you to any of it anyways, as I am mostly unfamiliar with that stuff.

But do note that if someone wants to make an archer, you might want to have a good option for them available besides "Zen Archer Cleric" or something (not that it is a bad option, it's just... not always what someone is looking for).

And this was the only reason for which I wouldn't drop Ranger. Indeed, archery is completely ignored in ToB, so I can look for some archery-type styles or homebrew one myself...

[Person_Man]

You don't really need to replace anything to create balance. If someone wants to play a Monk, let them. If after a couple of games there are balance issues, you can give the Monk more magic items, or have him bitten by a Lycanthrope of his alignment and hand wave the LA/HD, or let him take Leadership, etc.

[Doc Roc]

Archivists make the best archers.. ;)

[AslanCross]

I think this substitution is a bit too drastical, since the resulting Monk would lack many nice feature the original Monk has, such as the Speed bonus or the various immunities, which I like.

Well, the Swordsage is almost all the problems of the Monk. Immunities don't come into play so often, and a Swordsage with the Diamond Mind Concentration save counters can easily overcome diseases and the like.

The Monk's speed bonus doesn't come until later, while the Swordsage can get Step of the Wind and Wind Stride quite early. The Swordsage's varied disciplines can also easily represent Monks of different styles. It's worth a try, IMO.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psychic warriors make good archers, what with their bonus feats; their powers aren't focused on ranged styles, but can easily be adapted to serve as such (and you don't even have to alter them to do so); for example, strength of my enemy works beautifully with a Str-adjusting bow and Rapid Shot or Manyshot (preferably of Speed).

Heck, they're good all the way around.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

And this was the only reason for which I wouldn't drop Ranger. Indeed, archery is completely ignored in ToB, so I can look for some archery-type styles or homebrew one myself...

You want an archery discipline and want to keep the ranger?

Here you go.

[Cicciograna]

You want an archery discipline and want to keep the ranger?

Here you go.

Very interesting. It's a shame that the maneuvers' list is not complete.

[Sinfire Titan]

Very interesting. It's a shame that the maneuvers' list is not complete.

I'm actually working on that. When the Book of Expansions is finished, I'll have the Sublime Ranger and the Sublime Marshal reformated and ready for play.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Very interesting. It's a shame that the maneuvers' list is not complete.

I could have sworn it was completed at some point. Sinfire, was it never finished on the WotC boards because of their ownership-of-homebrew issues?

[Sinfire Titan]

I could have sworn it was completed at some point. Sinfire, was it never finished on the WotC boards because of their ownership-of-homebrew issues?

I'm not sure. I think it may be due to Tempest disappearing from the boards during the Gamer-0 Fiasco.

Regardless, there's enough information in the first few posts alone for me to pick up where he left off. I've got the information I need to finish the project, I just need the time to finish it (it will be done by November at the latest).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm not sure. I think it may be due to Tempest disappearing from the boards during the Gamer-0 Fiasco.

Ah yes, Gamer0.

Regardless, there's enough information in the first few posts alone for me to pick up where he left off. I've got the information I need to finish the project, I just need the time to finish it (it will be done by November at the latest).

You want some help with it? I have a bit of free time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have two homebrews you may be interested in:

1) Invocation Bard. Basically, a re-write of the Bard, using the Warlock Invocation system. He's got a lot of utility, decent skillmonkey (no trapfinding, though), awesome party face and "What is that" ability, and some mind-affecting battlefield control/buffing/debuffing.

2) Stalker. Initiation-based base class, designed to be a cross between a Rogue and a Ranger. Only gets Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand as schools known, but also gets Sneak Attack progression and some other fun toys.

The Bard is designed as party face and party support type of skillmonkey. The Stalker is the trapspringer/assassin type of skillmonkey.