Paizo's need Bard...same as the old but with illusion of difference?

[Starbuck_II]

Paizo brings out sneak peeks of new class changes.

Here is Bard preview:
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lad6

Basic changes.
1. Bard song, or Performance, now works a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + their Charisma modifier and gain an additional 2 rounds per day for every level beyond first.
2. Extra Performance feat grants additional uses.
3. Performance starts off as a standard action, then move action, and finally at higher levels can be done as a swift action.
4. Maintaining a performance is a free action, meaning that the bard can keep up a performance and still cast spells, move, and make attacks.
5. d8 hit points.
6. Bards get a spell without having to have a Charisma high enough to grant a bonus spell of a given level.
7. Bardic Knowledge now grants a bonus to all Knowledge skills equal to 1/2 the bard's level (minimum +1) and allows the bard to make any Knowledge skill check without having ranks in it.
8. Well-versed grants a flat +4 bonus on saves against other bardic performances, as well as sonic and language-based spell effects.
9. Lore master is granted at 5th level and it allows the bard to take 10 on any Knowledge skill check. In addition, once per day he can take 20 on a Knowledge skill check. As he gains levels, he can use this secondary ability multiple times per day as well.
10. Versatile Performance, gained at 2nd level, allows the bard to substitute his Perform bonus for the bonus of two other skills, depending on the type of Perform.

My thoughts:

1. No improvement at low levels.
In 3.5: Inspire Courage lasts till stop it (which means all day) since no spells to cast that are useful in battle (daze maybe).
Paizo: This means around level 2-3 when have good 1st lv spells can Inspire + cast + Inspire (if need be more than twice/day).

What Paizo forgets is Inspire Courage didn't use up an action to maintain in 3.5 so their change is steakth nerf.

2. So did extra music feat.
3. This is cool, but only Fascinate, Inspire Confidence (the skill booster song), and Counter Music required an action to maintain...
How often are you doing those three and need an action?
4. Always could do everything but cast spell. Take Lyric spell and you can cast spells while Inspiring Courage. Bards can do all of this in 3.5.
5. Awesome. +1 hp/level on average is great.
6. Not bad change here.
7. Bardic Knowledge is weaker in some ways, but yet stronger now...
8. So Bards are good against sound stuff fitds at least.
9. Kind of cool.
10. Nice.


So basically, they nerf the Bard than unnerf the Bard.

[Oblivious]

It seems like Versatile Performance would make the Bard a much better skillmonkey than the Rogue. There should at least be some sort of negative modifier.

[kjones]

I want to sing at a lock to unlock it.

Or sing at the ground to jump.

[Starbuck_II]

I want to sing at a lock to unlock it.

Or sing at the ground to jump.

In a way, that is kinda badass if weird.

[Random NPC]

I want to sing at a lock to unlock it.

Or sing at the ground to jump.

Jump, jump, jump, jump out of the impending doom

[GreyMantle]

More important than changes in the abilities is that that fine people at Paizo finally seem to have realized that, in 3.x, you wear things like cloaks of resistance or you die. I mean, their fighter, at like 11th level, had a will savae of +3 or something. Why?

[Epinephrine]

My thoughts:

1. No improvement at low levels. Inspire Courage lasts till stop it (which means all day) since no spells to cast that are useful in battle (daze maybe).
I admit this means around level 2-3 when have good 1st lv spells can Inspire + cast + Inspire (if need be more than twice/day).

I'm not sure where you get this? It's now rounds per day - why would Inspire Courage last all day? I did a quick read through and didn't see anything exempting Inspire Courage from the rounds/day total.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm not sure where you get this? It's now rounds per day - why would Inspire Courage last all day? I did a quick read through and didn't see anything exempting Inspire Courage from the rounds/day total.

I was referring to 3.5.
3.5: until stop for each use.
Paizo: X/rounds.

[Panda-s1]

So they kept the whole "bards can take 10 on any knowledge skill" BS, despite the fact that anyone can take 10 on knowledge checks. Yeah...

More than that, there was an unconfirmed rumor they're getting rid of take 10 for knowledge. If this is true, then... yeah, I'm not too happy right now.

[Cedrass]

So they kept the whole "bards can take 10 on any knowledge skill" BS, despite the fact that anyone can take 10 on knowledge checks. Yeah...

More than that, there was an unconfirmed rumor they're getting rid of take 10 for knowledge. If this is true, then... yeah, I'm not too happy right now.

Would make sense though. I mean Knowledge isn't one of those skills you can pull of but just enough. Either you know something or you don't, so roll it to see if your character has that actual knowledge.

[Oblivious]

But that leads to strange situations where an expert in the field fails to know common information on a subject.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I want to sing at a lock to unlock it.

Or sing at the ground to jump.

That's Perform (Dance) to jump. Think Breakdancing.

Wow, in trying to fix it, they nerfed it. Way to go. I still prefer my Invocation-based Bard. It was at least useful all day long instead of being even more restricted than the wizard in how long he can be effective, without the reality-warping brokenness to counterbalance.

[Cedrass]

But that leads to strange situations where an expert in the field fails to know common information on a subject.

Simple, rule 0. Do you really ask your players to roll Knowledge (Royalty) for them to know what a King is? I know by RAW your characters are stupid canvas that you have to roll everything for them to actually know how to breathe, but by RAW, a level 1 Kobold can have Epic Feats so, yeah.

As for the above post, his Bard Song may have been reduced, but he still has spells and such. Plus he has good skills and enough skill points to use them. That being said, I feel like he's weaker than say, the barbarian/wizard/rogue and of course the druid.

I'm hoping for one thing really about PF, when they actually release the real deal, I want all the 'insta-kill' capstone eliminated. It's just.. blargh. And they still didn't manage to make meleers as fun/useful as casters... I'm guessing I'll still use ToB for Fighter/Paladin/Monk...

Edit: Just read the Paladin on their blog. It's now a worthy class IMO, so it may not get replaced my Crusader. They seem solid enough now to stand on their own .

[Panda-s1]

Would make sense though. I mean Knowledge isn't one of those skills you can pull of but just enough. Either you know something or you don't, so roll it to see if your character has that actual knowledge.

The problem is by default your character is completely ignorant. Sure handwaving knowledge is one thing, but DC 10 on knowledge was common knowledge. Now I'd have to roll to know common knowledge. By default, I take 10 on knowledge all the time and know most everything provided I don't have a negative Int modifier, so it's virtually the same thing.

[BobVosh]

if you don't have a +9 to a knowledge skill, are you really "an expert on the field?"

[Epinephrine]

Why is taking 10 on knowledge useless? You can't take 10 under stress (like, in combat), and thus can't take 10 to identify enemies and their weaknesses. A bard can, which could be handy. The taking 20 is pretty handy too, the bard in our campaign has used it a few times, and it's really nice to be able to get a good roll when you think it counts.

I like the rounds/day for bard song, but the number of rounds seems too small. It also unfortunately doesn't work well with the previously established feats trading bard song uses.

I think I'd prefer to see it like the Pathfinder barbarian's rage - 4+Cha at 1st, 2+Cha per additional level, and charge extra points for bigger special effects.

The bard's ability to buff a group for things like major battles is completely shot, as a 20th level bard gets a few minutes of buffing.

[Cedrass]

The bard's ability to buff a group for things like major battles is completely shot, as a 20th level bard gets a few minutes of buffing.

With his Bard Song. He still has spells, and a 20th level Bard will have a good number of spells too. And he's got Use Magic Device he if doesn't want to waste Known Spells.

[Epinephrine]

With his Bard Song. He still has spells, and a 20th level Bard will have a good number of spells too. And he's got Use Magic Device he if doesn't want to waste Known Spells.

Still not sold on it - I agree that bards have more than just music, but so do other casters. And it's true that bardsong is powerful - +4/+4 is a big bonus, and can add a lot of damage, but one of the big advantages a bard had was that he could buff for very long periods, something he's now lost. A bard could have quite conceivably buffed a whole wall of soldiers on a keep, through a whole battle.

The game needs a balance between spike and endurance - Warlocks are endurance players, as are fighters, warblades, etc. They can go all day, and their effectiveness isn't affected (as long as you keep them standing).

The typical caster classes are powerhouses, but they are spike-like; once they've burned through their big guns, they are pretty much hosed. They should be forced to lean on the endurance folks sometimes, to conserve their big guns for when it counts. (yes, I know that some DMs will throw just enough encounters at a party to allow their mages to function at full effectiveness all the time, but I prefer not to. No sleep for you!)

Bard's previously were a hybrid - they had limited spells, that they could burn through easily, but nice long term staying power with songs. That adaptability kept them very handy, buffing the endurance classes in the long term, but able to whip out some casting to shift gears.

[Doc Roc]

More like +12/+12....
Optimized bards make numbers go high.
Unoptimized bards make gamers go cry.

[Panda-s1]

Why is taking 10 on knowledge useless? You can't take 10 under stress (like, in combat), and thus can't take 10 to identify enemies and their weaknesses. A bard can, which could be handy. The taking 20 is pretty handy too, the bard in our campaign has used it a few times, and it's really nice to be able to get a good roll when you think it counts.

It's not useless, it's very useful in fact. The problem is anyone can take 10 on knowledge in 3.5. But now there's rumor that they're removing that, so while bards remain this huge repository of knowledge, everyone else (wizards included) have potential to not know common knowledge on certain subjects. That's the issue.