Ranged Touch Attacks at close range?

[Thespianus]

I have a question about spells that grant a ranged touch attack (like Scorching Ray or Lesser Orb of Acid).

Can I cast Scorching Ray with my Rogue/Wizard at close range to gain flanking benefits (mainly sneak attack damage)? In short, I know I need to make a ranged touch attack, but I can't find a definition of how close I can be and still consider the attack to be "ranged".

Specific example with "normal" touch attack:
The Barbarian in my party is attacking a monster in melee. On my turn, I cast Shocking Grasp, make my move action so I flank the monster, and attack with a touch attack, delivering Shocking Grasp damage as well as my Sneak Attack damage. This is valid according to the PHB.

Specific example with ranged touch attack:
Same scenario as before, but the spell is now a Lesser Orb of Fire. On my turn, I cast the spell, make my move action to flank the monster (let's say I hold a dagger in my other hand, so I pose a real threat to the monster), and attack it with a ranged touch attack while standing next to the monster, and deliver the damage from the Lesser Orb of Fire. Will this let me add my sneak attack damage to the attack as well?

Sorry if this is easily determined in the PHB, I've just not managed to find a rule for this in RAW.

Thanks for any clarification.

[Burley]

"Ranged" means "not melee." If you are flanking, it isn't ranged. Also, when firing with a ranged attack into melee, you take penalties if you don't have the Precise Shot feat.
There are other spells you can use, though. Research spells that are touch attacks, and take Weapon Finesse to use your Dex to hit, instead of Str.

(I'm surprised I can remember the names of these feats...)
Is there a Meta-Magic that turns a spell into touch?

Oh! And, the Spell Flower spell from Spell Compendium. That could work for you, too.

[lsfreak]

You can make a ranged touch attack even from 5 feet away (and possibly even from within their square, while grappling, with the appropriate measures). Note that you'll provoke an attack unless casting defensively (not that that's usually an issue). Also note that things like Grease or Armor Lock might be a better option, since it'll last a while and doesn't have that annoying "I have d4 dice and I'm within thwacking range."

EDIT: The above poster is incorrect. Just as you can use a bow to make a ranged attack at someone 5 feet away (again, you'll provoke doing it) doesn't change that it's a ranged attack. Same with ranged touch attacks.

[Eldariel]

I recall a rule (that I can't find in SRD right now...) about you being able to make a ranged touch attack as a melee touch attack if adjacent, which would allow Flanking, SA and so on. Maybe that's just my own sense of rationality though, but I'm sure I've read it somewhere. I'll go browse Rules Compendium and Complete Arcane next...

[Eloel]

You get your sneak attack and +2 to hit. The target is threathened from 2 sides, thus flanked. It's irrelevant that the weapon is not a flanking weapon, it still works. (the rule of line-going-on-opposite-sides-of-enemy. You're on one side of the flank, shooting from threathening range.)

Though there's about a 5% chance I'm mistaken, and am thinking of some obscure feat.

[Thespianus]

Thanks.

The problem with the few attack spells that do direct damage is that they are all subjected to Spell Resistance. Lesser Orb of X isn't, and that would make my RoGish character a bit better at lashing out sneak attack damage with spells against enemies with Spell Resistance. (I'm just not a very good Wizard, so my chances to overcome decent SR are kind of low)

Anyway, I just wanted to get the opinions of the more experienced people on here. Thanks! :)

EDIT: Oh, ok, 4 more posts showed up while I was typing this, and it seems the jury isn't entirely unanimous. :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm pretty sure that any ranged attack, whether it's a thrown or projectile weapon or a ranged spell, always provokes an AoO when used while threatened. Using a ranged touch spell at melee range is no different than firing a bow at someone you're adjacent to. Not only is it impossible to gain flanking benefits for doing so, but you provoke an AoO just for trying it, due to making the ranged attack regardless of whether or not you cast defensively.

You can only gain the benefits of flanking on melee attacks, it never applies to ranged attacks. If you're using a ranged spell at melee, it's still ranged, just like firing a bow at an adjacent target is still a ranged attack. If you are wearing armor spikes or a gauntlet or can otherwise threaten the opponent, you can help an ally gain flanking, but you will only benefit from flanking when making a melee attack.

Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

[Burley]

HAHA! I was right. It's been so long since I've looked at 3.5 rules. Whew! I though I was makin' a fool of myself. Thanks, Biffonanafofana. (You're name is hard to say.)
You can get sneak attack if you catch an opponent flatfooted, though. As above, use things like Grease and Invisibility, or even look into an Improved Familiar that can trip. Or... since you're all blasty anyways... Maybe you shoulda looked at Warlock? Hm?

[Thespianus]

The problem isn't really to get Sneak Attacks with my spells (Shocking Grasp and Combust), the problem is that I want to overcome Spell Resistance with attacks that I can also apply my Sneak Attack damage to. :)

Shocking Grasp and Combust are subject to spell resistance, while Lesser Orb of X isn't. But, yeah, using Grease in the first round and Lesser Orb of X or Acid Splash in the second round would let me apply sneak attack damage. I guess that's a decent way to go.

Thanks, you all! :)

BTW, are there *any* touch attack spells that bypasses SR?

[Fixer]

Doesn't that mean you cannot sneak attack using a ranged attack unless your opponent is denied dex (i.e. you cannot shoot a flanked opponent with a ranged attack and get SA)?

[Eloel]

The problem isn't really to get Sneak Attacks with my spells (Shocking Grasp and Combust), the problem is that I want to overcome Spell Resistance with attacks that I can also apply my Sneak Attack damage to. :)

Shocking Grasp and Combust are subject to spell resistance, while Lesser Orb of X isn't. But, yeah, using Grease in the first round and Lesser Orb of X or Acid Splash in the second round would let me apply sneak attack damage. I guess that's a decent way to go.

Thanks, you all! :)

BTW, are there *any* touch attack spells that bypasses SR?

IIRC Orbs should, they bypass AMF. Melf's AA also does.

Edit: Ah, rereading, you seem to be meaning melee touch spells. AFAIK none exists.

[Cyrion]

One of the alternative features for the ranger in PHB II is the distracting attack. It allows your ranged attack to provide flanking priviliges for the next person to attack the opponent you just hit. You might see if your DM will let you take that as a feat for this character. It doesn't solve all your problems, but it's a step in that flavor.

[Burley]

IIRC Orbs should, they bypass AMF. Melf's AA also does.

Edit: Ah, rereading, you seem to be meaning melee touch spells. AFAIK none exists.

Create Flame? Is that the name of the spell. Lets you lob little fireballs, or make touch attacks. Has the conjuration (whatever) descriptor that lets it overcome SR, if I remember my rules lawyering correctly.

[Eloel]

Create Flame? Is that the name of the spell. Lets you lob little fireballs, or make touch attacks. Has the conjuration (whatever) descriptor that lets it overcome SR, if I remember my rules lawyering correctly.

That's AMF, not SR. SR-overcoming is stated in spell description as SR: No.

[Quietus]

Doesn't that mean you cannot sneak attack using a ranged attack unless your opponent is denied dex (i.e. you cannot shoot a flanked opponent with a ranged attack and get SA)?

Correct. Now, if you're invisible, then they're denied their dex to you. Or if you cast Grease, and they don't have five ranks in Balance (very little does), they're flat-footed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cast Grease under the opponent, they're considered Balancing as per the Balance skill as long as they stand on it. That means they're automatically flat-footed if they don't have at least 5 ranks in Balance, and you can sneak attack them without needing to flank.

[Keld Denar]

There are other ways to bypass SR than using SR:No spells. Since you are multiclassed, have you taken the feat Practiced Spellcaster? It increases your CL by 4, but not to exceed your HD. That means that you can have up to 4 levels of a non-caster class and still have full caster level to determine things like range, damage dice, duration, and yes...overcoming SR. Note that these aren't actual spellcaster levels that grant extra spells or anything like that, only the caster level as specified in any given spell.

Regardless, if you have non-caster levels, that'll help you overcome SR. There is also Arcane Mastery, which allows you to take 10 to overcome SR, and a large number of items that increase your CL as well.

[Thespianus]

Ah, ok, Practiced Spellcaster also boosts my ability to overcome SR?

I had missed that (my character already has the feat), I thought it was just giving me +4 as an effective level on the effect of the spell ( 5D6 for Shocking Grasp instead of 1D6 for a Rogue 4/Wiz1, for example).

This is excellent news, this means that I have a decent chance to get through SR, even if I don't have too many actual caster levels at the moment. Yummy!

:)

This and a Wand of Grease at CL 3 will be a lot of fun for my character and his party. :)

[Douglas]

Practiced Spellcaster, along with just about every other caster level boosting feat, ability, or item in existence, boosts anything and everything related to caster level except spells per day and spells known.

[Ninetail]

You get your sneak attack and +2 to hit. The target is threathened from 2 sides, thus flanked. It's irrelevant that the weapon is not a flanking weapon, it still works. (the rule of line-going-on-opposite-sides-of-enemy. You're on one side of the flank, shooting from threathening range.)

Though there's about a 5% chance I'm mistaken, and am thinking of some obscure feat.

You're mistaken. You can't flank with a ranged attack, even if you're 5 ft. away.

There's probably a feat or prestige class feature or both that allow it, though. Something similar to Close-Combat Shot, or whatever it's called, would work.

Note that making a ranged attack while threatened also provokes an attack of opportunity unless you've got a class feature to get around that. Also, if your ally is in a flanking position, then you are firing a ranged attack into melee, and take penalties for doing so unless you have Precise Shot.