[4e] Mace rogues

[Hal]

Martial Power has options to let rogues use maces as light blades and combine them with rattling powers.

I haven't really looked into this sort of build very much. Is it at all worth it, or would a rogue be best sticking with a traditional light blade?

[Arcane Copycat]

Martial Power has options to let rogues use maces as light blades and combine them with rattling powers.

I haven't really looked into this sort of build very much. Is it at all worth it, or would a rogue be best sticking with a traditional light blade?

Think of it as Ruthless Ruffian vs Brutal Scoundrel.

RR: Add Str to Rattling attacks made with mace.
BS Add str to sneak attack.

Add in the fact that you can wield a Mace 2-handed for an extra +1, and you can put out a bit more damage if you can't get CA for sneak attack

[Irate Ranger]

It helps a lot against undead.

[Hal]

It helps a lot against undead.

Can you explain why?

[Irate Ranger]

Can you explain why?

They're still vulnerable to blunt weapons in 4e, right? I haven't played it in like a year.

[Arcane Copycat]

They're still vulnerable to blunt weapons in 4e, right? I haven't played it in like a year.

They got rid of distinctions between slashing and bludgeoning damage (this is most unfortunate, coming from someone who has only ever played 4e)

Although a fair few weapons that deal radiant (or at least half radiant) come in the form of maces so there is that

[Sir Homeslice]

The primary benefit to maces (and hammers) is Hammer Rhythm, which requires Constitution. Ruthless Ruffian also requires a good Strength to take advantage of extra damage, and Charisma for a few of their powers, in addition to Dexterity for attacking. I haven't seen a well built RR Rogue yet, mainly because of the MAD.

A good/fun idea though, would be to max Str and Cha, multiclass Bard, and take the Daring Blade Paragon Path in Dragon 376 (Class Acts: Bard).

ALSO GRAB SCALE SO YOU CAN BE A ROGUE IN SCALE, ALSO DECENT AC.

It'll only cost you two feats, one for chain and another for scale.

[Irate Ranger]

They got rid of distinctions between slashing and bludgeoning damage (this is most unfortunate, coming from someone who has only ever played 4e)

Although a fair few weapons that deal radiant (or at least half radiant) come in the form of maces so there is that

Oh, then disregard what I just said.

[Burley]

So, just in case you wanted a straight answer:
Pro: You will deal much more damage, and you're imposing a penalty that is better than a mark, because they take the penalty against you, as well.
Con: You will hit less often, and you're focusing on melee, which is risky.

Basically, it offers the most damage output, but it's the most risky way to build a character.

[Kurald Galain]

I haven't really looked into this sort of build very much. Is it at all worth it, or would a rogue be best sticking with a traditional light blade?

No, it is not. The apparent extra damage on maces and the like pales in comparison to the +2 to hit daggers get (+1 for being a rogue, +1 because daggers are +3 weapons normally).

Remember that a Brutal rogue can do sneak attack pretty much every round, sometimes more often with the right feats; in comparison, a brutal rogue doesn't want to be using rattle powers every round, because most rattle powers are rather sucky.

They're still vulnerable to blunt weapons in 4e, right? I haven't played it in like a year.

No. Also, they can be sneak attacked. Also, oozes can be tripped, mindless creatures can be mind controlled, et cetera. Blanket immunities no longer exist, and that is a design feature.

The primary benefit to maces (and hammers) is Hammer Rhythm, which requires Constitution.

Yeah, that one is for rangers.

ALSO GRAB SCALE SO YOU CAN BE A ROGUE IN SCALE, ALSO DECENT AC.

That is actually very bad advice for a rogue. Any class with a dex and/or int as their primary statistic should obviously stick with light armor and spend the feat on something useful.

Pro: You will deal much more damage, and you're imposing a penalty that is better than a mark, because they take the penalty against you, as well.

Both are incorrect: your damage is much less because (1) you're hitting less often, and (2) you're using crappy powers if you do hit. Furthermore, the penalty for a mark is more effective than rattling, because all marking classes give additional effects (such as a fighter's challenge attack, and a swordmage's teleport). You're not a tank, don't try to be one.

[Sir Homeslice]

That is actually very bad advice for a rogue. Any class with a dex and/or int as their primary statistic should obviously stick with light armor and spend the feat on something useful.

Learn to context. The suggestion for scale was for the Str/Cha Ruthless Ruffian Rogue/Bard/Daring Blade.

[NPCMook]

Main Stat for Rogue DEX, stick with Light armor, don't go above hide.

[Mando Knight]

ALSO GRAB SCALE SO YOU CAN BE A ROGUE IN SCALE, ALSO DECENT AC.

-WRONG!

As a Rogue, you need to maximize your Dexterity to keep hitting things. Scale is a heavy armor... in other words, you can't add your Dexterity bonus to your AC while wearing it. On top of that, you take a -1 penalty to speed without Armor Specialization (Scale). You're wasting feats to get Scale. If you need more defense, invest in Hide armor and either get proficiency in a Defensive weapon (like a Parrying Dagger) or get Two-Weapon Defense. Or do all three (they stack).

[Sir Homeslice]

-WRONG!

Main Stat for Rogue DEX, stick with Light armor, don't go above hide.

Learn to context. The suggestion for scale was for the Str/Cha Ruthless Ruffian Rogue/Bard/Daring Blade.

Do you people think I'm insane or something?

[Alteran]

Do you people think I'm insane or something?

They may not know what you're talking about, the Daring Blade is quite new. If I remember correctly, is a Bard paragon path that allows you to use charisma for the attack and damage rolls of all martial powers.

[Asbestos]

Hey, hammer rhythm is also good for tempest fighters wielding... hammers or maces with the off-hand property? Honestly, people give that feat far too much credit.

The problem with Ruthless Ruffian is that its basic feature is STR dependent, but many of the rider effects are CHA dependent. Throw in that all your attacks are DEX dependent (and even if you 18 dex, a 14 dex dagger rogue will be your equal in terms of to-hit) and you have some unenviable MAD.

The most optimized course of action is to probably go... half-orc, with an 18 dex, 16 str, 13 con, and throw everything else at Cha. If you pick up hide (the Con is needed for this) and a shield you can end up surviving pretty well in melee.

Edit: This can easily be fluffed as a 'barbarian rogue'. I mean, you're a half-orc with a shield and hide armor, are trained in intimidate, and you bash people about with a mace.

[Mando Knight]

They may not know what you're talking about, the Daring Blade is quite new. If I remember correctly, is a Bard paragon path that allows you to use charisma for the attack and damage rolls of all martial powers.

It still has a much higher feat cost, is just as MAD (needs Dex and Con to qualify for the Scale feats), and isn't playable until Paragon. I'd skip this. It's made for bards, not characters multiclassing into bards. And on top of that, it's Dragon material, which isn't always an option. And you miss out on the Rogue-focused Martial Power Paragon Paths.

[Sir Homeslice]

It still has a much higher feat cost, is MAD, and isn't playable until Paragon. I'd skip this. It's made for bards, not characters multiclassing into bards. And on top of that, it's Dragon material, which isn't always an option. And you miss out on the Rogue-focused Martial Power Paragon Paths.

Wrong. Directly from the article:

The following four paragon paths demonstrate ways a bard character might change based on dabbling in classes from a specific power source. A Blessed Psalmist, for example, offers benefits appropriate for characters with a heavy investment in divine classes, while the daring blade is suitable for bards with investment in the martial power source. Since these paragon paths require only that the character be a bard, other characters who take the Bardic Dilettante feat (Player’s Handbook 2, page 196) can also enter these paragon paths and might find interesting ways to develop their primary class’s powers and features.

In addition, two feats for scale won't kill the rogue that has no dex, and there is no MAD. As the Str/Cha Rogue, you just need to put a 13/12 into Con at chargen and you can pull it off at heroic/paragon.

As for the playability, this, like the ultimate Resourceful Warlord build (Tiefling Reslord, 16 in Int/Cha, MC Bard, etc.) isn't really supposed to work at Heroic, becuase they take advantage of Daring Blade's hilarity. Well, the warlord can work, you had just better get used to using nothing but commander's strike, bracers of mental might, and effect line abuse.

[Kurald Galain]

Sure, you can qualify for cross-class paragon paths, that's nothing new, but in many cases it is a bad idea due to lack of synergy.

In addition, two feats for scale won't kill the rogue that has no dex, and there is no MAD.

A rogue with no dex... that is a really bad idea considering all your attack powers work off dexterity. The best defense is a good offense, and wasting two feats and dumping your dex means you will be a highly ineffective rogue. If you want a scale mail character, I'd suggest you pick another class.

isn't really supposed to work at Heroic,

Guess what? Most games starts at heroic. And even at paragon, making all your at-wills and class powers ineffective is not such a useful idea for a build. What's next, a wizard that dumps intelligence and takes a paladin paragon?

[NPCMook]

Sure, you can qualify for cross-class paragon paths, that's nothing new, but in many cases it is a bad idea due to lack of synergy.


A rogue with no dex... that is a really bad idea considering all your attack powers work off dexterity. The best defense is a good offense, and wasting two feats and dumping your dex means you will be a highly ineffective rogue. If you want a scale mail character, I'd suggest you pick another class.


Guess what? Most games starts at heroic. And even at paragon, making all your at-wills and class powers ineffective is not such a useful idea for a build. What's next, a wizard that dumps intelligence and takes a paladin paragon?

His whole point is that specific Paragon path allows him to use his Charisma for all his martial attacks, though starting at heroic its doomed to fail as the entire party groans as that's rogues turn to attack. You are also tossing out all your bonuses to being a rogue Dex based skills. With high Charisma you will indeed pass the bluff check to basically hide in plain sight, but you will utterly fail to actually hide.

[Sir Homeslice]

A rogue with no dex... that is a really bad idea considering all your attack powers work off dexterity. The best defense is a good offense, and wasting two feats and dumping your dex means you will be a highly ineffective rogue. If you want a scale mail character, I'd suggest you pick another class.

Daring Blade
"The blade is my instrument; your blood is its song."
Prerequisites: Bard, any martial class

Daring Improvisation (11th level): When you make a martial melee weapon attack, you can use Charisma for the attack roll and damage roll in place of the ability score required by the attack.

Good lord, people.

Guess what? Most games starts at heroic.

Great for them.

[Mando Knight]

As for the playability, this, like the ultimate Resourceful Warlord build (Tiefling Reslord, 16 in Int/Cha, MC Bard, etc.) isn't really supposed to work at Heroic, becuase they take advantage of Daring Blade's hilarity. Well, the warlord can work, you had just better get used to using nothing but commander's strike, bracers of mental might, and effect line abuse.

It works because the Warlord's Commander's Strike is probably the best melee at-will there is when coupled with characters with decent melee basic attacks, and can wield a heavy blade for +3 proficiency. A Rogue with a Dexterity problem will have trouble, especially before he qualifies for the correct feats, and if he wants to take advantage of his Ruthless Ruffian class feature, he also takes a penalty by wielding a +2 proficiency weapon.

You also need 15 Dexterity (by Paragon) and 13 Constitution to get Scale Specialization (you'll want the speed boost, and the +1 AC), which costs the same 3 feats that would allow you to get Hide armor and Two-Weapon Defense.

Counting in the 4th feat (Bard multiclass), a Dex-based rogue could also include Weapon Proficiency in the Double Sword (AKA Broken Sword of Awesomeness) or the Parrying Dagger (should only be considered if the character wishes to wield a ranged weapon or a club/mace in the other hand).

You could make the build work, but I wouldn't suggest it without being a Dragonborn (for its +2 Str/Cha).

[DSCrankshaw]

Most of the Charisma focused martial MC bard builds are built for paragon. It works if you start in paragon, but it's hard to get there. I'd consider it if I was starting paragon, actually.

That said, a half-elf bard MC rogue, using Combat Virtuoso in heroic, works quite well. Pick up Versatile Master in paragon, and decide then whether you'd rather PMC or take Daring Blade.

Combat Virtuoso plus Versatile Master = Free-form multiclassing, since you're always using Cha to hit.

[Kurald Galain]

It works because the Warlord's Commander's Strike is probably the best melee at-will there is

I'm reasonably sure that honor goes to Twin Strike and Dual Strike.

Of course you can make a build "work", for a given definition of "work". A fighter with 10 strength can also "work", because he can still mark stuff and score reasonably well on endurance checks. That doesn't mean it's in any way remotely effective, though.

[Mando Knight]

I'm reasonably sure that honor goes to Twin Strike and Dual Strike.

Ah, yeah. Those ones. Well, then it's the best Leader at-will.

[Charity]

^ I'd say that was rightious brand...

I would consider using a mace (morningstars are maces) for a high weapon damage attack power like Assasins point [7W], but it isn't a patch on the dagger overall as a rogue weapon.

[Ravens_cry]

A rogue with a blunt weapon, where have I heard of that before?
Of course!
KABONG!

[Mando Knight]

A rogue with a blunt weapon, where have I heard of that before?
Of course!
KABONG!

Boink! BONK!