[4e] Help me compare some Sorcelatin' concept

[Burley]

Based on a conversation with a friend, and as an exercise in optimization, I ask which two Sorcerer Builds would be best. The only restrictions: It's 4e, don't make things up, and stay as exclusive as possible to the two concepts.

Mr. Freeze:
The first focuses on cold spells (exclusively when possible). I'm 85% certain there is a cold spell for every attack level between PHB2 and ArcaPow. (Oh, yeah. ArcaPow. Tell your friends.) Plus, the feats Wintertouched and Lasting Frost, presented in PHB1, don't see enough use. Of course, the cold based Paragon path in ArcaPow is a must.

Areana Mc(play on words here)pants
The other idea focuses on Area attacks (exclusively when possible). Storm Source-or-or would be best, in my mind. I dunno about feats, or anything, really.

So, any ideas?

[Sir Homeslice]

Areana Mc(play on words here)pants
The other idea focuses on Area attacks (exclusively when possible). Storm Source-or-or would be best, in my mind. I dunno about feats, or anything, really.

Enter Li Zhou, Drow Storm Sorceror/Rogue/Daggermaster/Demigod, and Critmaster extraordinaire (also as a side effect he's quite good at blasting areas). He deals 160 damage (5d10 Bloodiron, 2d10 War Rings, 1d10 Devestating Critical, all maxed due to Fury of the Storm. Doubled because of Bloodiron.) on a crit, on which he has an 18-20 range, and due to Sorcerous Flux (swap attack rolls when attacking two or more creatures), he can focus fire for maximum carnage. When he eventually sizzles out of encounter powers, and when he chooses not to throw up dailies for more fun, Blazing Starfall is an Area Burst 1 within 10 that can repeat itself if and when it scores a critical, although no crit recursion can happen.

[Mando Knight]

When he eventually sizzles out of encounter powers,

The character is a demigod. At level 30, that time will be undefined.

[Nahal]

So far I'm quite happy with my Chaos sorceror, Korgan. I created him pre-ArcaPow, otherwise I would probably have made STR his tertiary attribute instead of CON and made him Storm Source to maximize his crit damage. As it stands, all but one of his attacks includes a debuff and/or forced movement (thanks to psychic lock, all his Psychic attacks impose a -2 penalty on the target's next attack roll. This keeps Chaos Bolt's secondary attack relevant all the way up to lvl30). I'm sure he can be tweaked into the realms of insanity by a proper charop expert, but I'm sadly not one of them.

[Alteran]

I do like the idea of a full-out cold sorcerer, since I like cold damage. You'd definitely go with Dragon Magic and pick cold as your damage type, since Wild Magic and Cosmic Magic are less consistent. At-will powers...probably dragonfrost (obviously) and burning spray. You might consider using Arcane Admixture (paragon feat, ArcaPow P130) to add cold damage to burning spray.

Keep in mind that Blizzard Mage isn't an amazing paragon path. The capstone (Blizzard) is a fantastic power, but the rest is poor to average to good. In general, it gets better as you get to higher levels.

Arena McPants, hmm. You say area attacks, I'm not sure if you count close attacks in here. If you do, then dragon magic would be a good choice. Otherwise, probably storm, maaaybe cosmic? I know they get burning starfall, an at-will ranged burst. Other sorcerers can take it, but it won't be quite as good. I'm going to suggest storm because I like it better. The whole idea of storm magic is very interesting to me, and I love the two static resistances (that can be dropped for a shield-like effect). Storm sorcerers get quite a few good area powers, but I would probably stay away from the leaping bolt type ones, where you hit one target and then sometimes get chances to branch out and hit others. Not only do these powers require an initial hit to even attack other targets (which I dislike), they're not strictly area attacks.

I would suggest enlarge spell (also ArcaPow), but it's a wizard-only feat. Sorcerers tend to do quite well with multiple-target attacks, since their bonus damage is not limited to one hit per round. If a rogue hits 3 enemies in a turn, they can only use sneak attack on one of them. If a sorcerer hits 3 enemies in a turn, they can get their dragon/wild/storm/cosmic power damage on all of them.

[Sir Homeslice]

The character is a demigod. At level 30, that time will be undefined.

Eight levels is awfully far off to be dreaming of infinite Wildrift Bursts and Mother Claws, don'tcha think?

Plus, lol level 30.

[Tengu_temp]

Remember to take Implement Expertise (Wand) and Dual Implement Caster.

[Nahal]

To be a little more helpful, If you're going for the arena build it's hard for me to overstate the utility of the Prismatic line of dailies. You may get some more raw damage output from the others, but the effects still come into play regardless of whether you hit or miss AND each of them carries a relatively potent debuff. You may get frustrated on occasion when you start running into resistances, but if you want to sow chaos among a group of enemies it's tough to beat the sheer screw-with factor of Primatics IMO.

Personally I'd pick the Arena build over Mr. Freeze, simply because I have a thing for battlefield control effects but find wizards to have a depressingly low damage output in 4e. I'd probably pick Storm Source over the others because they can protect allies as well as deal ungodly damage to enemies (a number of their rider effects are "the origin of the burst can be left out," which is fun times if you've got an ally being flanked and/or surrounded). I'm also partial to wild mage for flavor reasons, but they're a bit less predictable (duh).

[NPCMook]

Enter Li Zhou, Drow Storm Sorceror/Rogue/Daggermaster/Demigod, and Critmaster extraordinaire (also as a side effect he's quite good at blasting areas). He deals 160 damage (5d10 Bloodiron, 2d10 War Rings, 1d10 Devestating Critical, all maxed due to Fury of the Storm. Doubled because of Bloodiron.) on a crit, on which he has an 18-20 range, and due to Sorcerous Flux (swap attack rolls when attacking two or more creatures), he can focus fire for maximum carnage. When he eventually sizzles out of encounter powers, and when he chooses not to throw up dailies for more fun, Blazing Starfall is an Area Burst 1 within 10 that can repeat itself if and when it scores a critical, although no crit recursion can happen.

There's still a lot of debate on Daggermaster working with Sorcerer's using Daggers as Implements.

[Asbestos]

Remember to take Implement Expertise (Wand) and Dual Implement Caster.

Yeah, but then you can't let your Martial prowess in using daggers as weapons help you crit more often with your Arcane ranged burst attacks channeled through daggers.



Or... what NPC Mook said.

[Sir Homeslice]

There's still a lot of debate on Daggermaster working with Sorcerer's using Daggers as Implements.

The Daggermaster debate can kiss my impossibly magnificent arse. It's an 18-20 range and I'm rolling with nothing but obscene crit damage and bursts, with no chance of friendlies getting critted, unless I manage to somehow catch two allies in the burst and manage to crit both, in which case someone is going to have to cast Raise Dead and it ain't me.

[SadisticFishing]

Don't touch Demigod's level 30 ability with a 10 foot pole. Find some change for it before you use it, otherwise there are too many infinite damage combos - and they totally invalidate your at-wills. Meh.

I'm playing a Cold Dragon sorcerer, and loving it. Draconic Arrogance = win.

But you should always use Area Attack, and never give up an amazing power just because another power is cold.

Oh, and Dagger Master definitely works, at the moment.

[Tengu_temp]

Yeah, but then you can't let your Martial prowess in using daggers as weapons help you crit more often with your Arcane ranged burst attacks channeled through daggers.



Or... what NPC Mook said.

You should read more Penny Arcade.

[Mando Knight]

In that case, use Focused Expertise (Dagger). It'll help both your Sorcelator spells and your Daggermaster exploits.

[Asbestos]

You should read more Penny Arcade.

I do, I'm just tired of sorcerer builds that seem to have been thought up in order to fight Wolfoids and Witchaloks. The debate about Daggermaster is one of those annoying RAI vs RAW things. Rules lawyers will say it works one way and they will be right according to RAW, everyone else will just groan.

[NPCMook]

I do, I'm just tired of sorcerer builds that seem to have been thought up in order to fight Wolfoids and Witchaloks. The debate about Daggermaster is one of those annoying RAI vs RAW things. Rules lawyers will say it works one way and they will be right according to RAW, everyone else will just groan.

I'm a rules Lawyer and I believe that its intended to work with Martail powers

[Asbestos]

I'm a rules Lawyer and I believe that its intended to work with Martail powers

Or maybe primal ones, the key is using the dagger as a weapon rather than an implement.

Sorry for lumping 'people who interpret the rules to their every advantage' in with 'Rules Lawyers'.

[Sir Homeslice]

I'm a rules Lawyer and I believe that its intended to work with Martail powers

Dagger Precision (11th level): You can score critical hits with daggers on a roll of 18–20.

Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage.

Neither of these mention the prerequisite of being only used for Martial powers. An attack is an attack, and scoring critical hits with Daggermaster's 11th level feature, by the rules, doesn't care whether it's a stab to the kidneys, or a bolt of lightning, as long as the attack is made using the dagger and the attack was able to hit anyways as per Critical Hit rules.

[NPCMook]

Neither of these mention the prerequisite of being only used for Martial powers. An attack is an attack, and scoring critical hits with Daggermaster's 11th level feature, by the rules, doesn't care whether it's a stab to the kidneys, or a bolt of lightning, as long as the attack is made using the dagger and the attack was able to hit anyways as per Critical Hit rules.

Yes, we get it you are a munchkin, we stopped caring a long time ago, go back to making builds with Punisher of the Gods.

[Sir Homeslice]

Yes, we get it you are a munchkin, we stopped caring a long time ago, go back to making builds with Punisher of the Gods.

Oh yes, having Daggermaster work with implement attacks means I love Punisher of the Gods, which aside from having nice fluff, is so horrendously cheesy that all of CharOp reviles its very name.

Jumping to conclusions, much?

[SadisticFishing]

Okay, so do Jagged Daggers work? How about Weapon Focus (Light Blades)? The clear response to both of these is - yes. Duh.

CLEARLY Daggermaster works. It's odd, but I mean... being a master of the dagger doesn't necessarily just mean cutting with it, either.

Jumping to calling people munchkins because they understand how to read the rules to their advantage, yet properly, is unfair and uncalled for.

Plus Punisher of the Gods is stupid :P

Though note that offhand Staff of Ruin is not allowed as written, and Blood Iron Weapons are retarded and should be stayed away from as much as Reckless and Bloodclaw weapons (I sat down and did the math).

[Sir Homeslice]

Though note that offhand Staff of Ruin is not allowed as written

Offhand implement properties apply to the main hand, while offhand weapon properties do not, IIRC.

Also yes, Bloodiron is absolute madness, but the DM literally told me to throw everything I've got at him (PotG not included, as it's so unfair it's not even funny), so...

[Mando Knight]

I'm a rules Lawyer and I believe that its intended to work with Martail powers

Ew. No. That makes Rogue MC for Bards painful. And stops Spellscar powers from working with Rogues.

[SadisticFishing]

Nope, offhand properties apply, unless they say "with this weapon", sort of thing.

"You get +x to damage." works. "You get +x damage with this implement." does not.

[holywhippet]

While you are free to flavour your character however you want. I personally would not build a cold exclusive character. Simply because some monsters have cold resistance at which point your character is stuck firing sling bullets or whatever. Could you imagine running into a few chillborne zombies with nothing but cold up your sleeve?

[Gralamin]

While you are free to flavour your character however you want. I personally would not build a cold exclusive character. Simply because some monsters have cold resistance at which point your character is stuck firing sling bullets or whatever. Could you imagine running into a few chillborne zombies with nothing but cold up your sleeve?

Indeed, unless you can convince the DM to let you re flavor Lightning Fury, Or at least steal "Unstoppable Lightning"

[Alteran]

Could you imagine running into a few chillborne zombies with nothing but cold up your sleeve?

They actually only have resist 10 cold. They're level 6 soldiers, so you'll likely be in mid heroic tier when you face them. Since you'll be a dragon sorcerer choosing cold as your damage type, they'll effectively have resist 5 to your cold attacks. That's annoying, but not a huge deal. After all, with dragonfrost you could deal an average of (4.5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 2) 15.5 cold damage. That's a 5 point reduction in damage, or about 33%. While significant in heroic tier, it's not crippling. After all, how often will you face enemies with resistance to cold?

[holywhippet]

They actually only have resist 10 cold. They're level 6 soldiers, so you'll likely be in mid heroic tier when you face them.

Tell that to my DM. Our party have run into 3 of them so far (2 in our first battle, 1 in a later battle) and we are all level 1. He decided to go for fewer, high level monsters rather than numerous weaklings.

[Tengu_temp]

Tell that to my DM. Our party have run into 3 of them so far (2 in our first battle, 1 in a later battle) and we are all level 1. He decided to go for fewer, high level monsters rather than numerous weaklings.

Then he should use elites and solos instead (there are even rules how to convert normal enemies into them) - monsters that are more than 4 levels above you usually have simply too high attack bonus and defenses. Especially soldiers.

[RTGoodman]

Then he should use elites and solos instead (there are even rules how to convert normal enemies into them) - monsters that are more than 4 levels above you usually have simply too high attack bonus and defenses. Especially soldiers.

Yeah, pretty much. Your problem isn't the monsters' resistances, it's your DM throwing things at you that you probably shouldn't be facing.

After all, how often will you face enemies with resistance to cold?

According to this handy thread, about 2% of Heroic monsters have Resist Cold of some sort (with the highest being 20 and most being 5-10), and none are immune. At Paragon levels, it's about 6% that have some sort of resistance (anywhere from 5 to 30), and .5% are immune. Still not TOO bad. At Epic tier, though, some 15% have cold resistance, with significant values; none are outright immune, fortunately.