So..what happens if?

[Origomar]

what happens if a DM sets up an encounter that is too difficult and every party member dies ? O.o?

[Thorin]

Roll 4d6 4 times. Tadda!

Now, seriously, TPK is something that can happen. And it is not entirely the fault of the DM. maybe the party fought badly the encounter, or maybe was bad prepared or the rolls went really crappy for them.

If it was the first encounter of the campaign, as a Dm, i will adjust the next encounters and, with the party approval, act as if it had never happen, so everyone can learn from the situation.

[Signmaker]

Roll 4d6 6 times per person. tadda!

Fixed.

Also, it depends on how harsh the DM was being, whether or not the TPK was an accidental miscalculation, and other various circumstances surrounding the TPK.

[Duke of URL]

TPKs happen. Sometimes out of sheer bad luck, sometimes out of poor balancing, and sometimes because the players are stupid and p*ss off someone/thing they have no business fighting.

[Origomar]

Ah ok i was just wondering. i thought it would be funny if once everyone died the gm was like" Game Over"

[Mr.Moron]

Take the game to the after life. Their are some relatively minor (at least on the cosmic scale) things that need to be taken care of in the spiritual realm. That due to heavenly politics or something similar cannot be taken care of directly by the normal in-plane servants of the deity.

Thinking these new souls have the "Right Stuff" to get the job done, they are offered the task. The reward: Restored Bodies, a Teleport to a friendly town and a new chance at life.

[Mando Knight]

TPKs happen. Sometimes out of sheer bad luck, sometimes out of poor balancing, and sometimes because the players are stupid and p*ss off someone/thing they have no business fighting.

And sometimes it happens because the DM is/listens to advice from old-school DMs.

[talus21]

Had this happen recently. Our party tried to escape through a water filled tunnel. The DM gave plenty of hints that this wouldn't work, but we foolishly pressed on and proceeded to drown.

The DM then not sure how to proceed decided to have the cleric of the group have a vision from his god. We rewound time a bit and had the whole drowning episode as a vision. Thus the cleric convinced the party that we shouldn't try that plan.

Sum up. Sometimes players are stupid and deserve to die. Some times stuff happens and things go poorly.

[Blackfang108]

Roll 4d6 4 times. Tadda!

Now, seriously, TPK is something that can happen. And it is not entirely the fault of the DM. maybe the party fought badly the encounter, or maybe was bad prepared or the rolls went really crappy for them.

If it was the first encounter of the campaign, as a Dm, i will adjust the next encounters and, with the party approval, act as if it had never happen, so everyone can learn from the situation.

Does putting a level 3 party into a level 7 Dungeon Delve count as a DM error or a Player error?

[herrhauptmann]

Depends, did the DM pick the delve up at the store and say "WOW! My party would love this!" or did a player see it and say "DM! Run this for us, it'll be so awesome!" on the basis of the front cover?

[Telonius]

TPKs can lead to interesting plot twists.

"After what seems like both an eyeblink and an eternity, you all slowly stagger to your feet. The Cleric nods. 'The deed is done, my debt is paid. Praise the gods that your benefactor received the news so quickly." (Vanishes in a puff of Plane Shift, leaving the party to scratch their heads).

Great way to introduce an interested high-level NPC to the adventure.

[LibraryOgre]

And sometimes it happens because the DM is/listens to advice from old-school DMs.

Shoot, that's just a sign the party needs to work on its tactics. "Run away" is a perfectly valid tactic.

[Kris Strife]

Shoot, that's just a sign the party needs to work on its tactics. "Run away" is a perfectly valid tactic.

Is Run Away Screaming Like Face Cake a valid alternative?

[shadzar]

what happens if a DM sets up an encounter that is too difficult and every party member dies ? O.o?

You cry, you laugh, then you roll new characters.

TPKs happen.

[Mr.Moron]

You cry, you laugh, then you roll new characters.

TPKs happen.

Why does it need to be "Game Over" though? There are other solutions & consequences that are more interesting. A few have been covered in this thread already.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Ugh, the worst is when PCs have been spoiled by MMORPGs. They expect every character they make somehow "deserves" if not to reach high-level then to have a glorious death the bards will sing of for ages. They bitch horribly if they just step on an unlucky tile and get beheaded by a guillotine from behind, because it's "no fun" and "boring" that their hero-to-be got taken out like a chump.

[shadzar]

Why does it need to be "Game Over" though? There are other solutions & consequences that are more interesting. A few have been covered in this thread already.

Who said game over. The new characters can pick up the story where the dead ones left off, and likely the dead ones have changed some thing to clear the way for the new ones.

You don't strive to kill off PCs that often to get new ones, but sometimes **it happens.

I was answering the original question. Has there been a new one that I missed somewhere?

[Mr.Moron]

Who said game over. The new characters can pick up the story where the dead ones left off, and likely the dead ones have changed some thing to clear the way for the new ones.

It'd probably still call that a "Game Over". Certainly you're still playing, but it's with an entirely new cast.. who likely never had any sort of focus in the story before that point. It's at least a bit jarring.

You don't strive to kill off PCs that often to get new ones, but sometimes **it happens.

I was answering the original question. Has there been a new one that I missed somewhere?

True. [Poopy] does indeed happen, I'm just not sure why so many people are eager to have that automatically mean "Back to character creations guys"(not just in this thread, in general). You didn't miss a question, I just think are better answers is all.

[Asheram]

Characters come and go, but a TPK is always a game over.

[shadzar]

It'd probably still call that a "Game Over". Certainly you're still playing, but it's with an entirely new cast.. who likely never had any sort of focus in the story before that point. It's at least a bit jarring.



True. [Poopy] does indeed happen, I'm just not sure why so many people are eager to have that automatically mean "Back to character creations guys"(not just in this thread, in general). You didn't miss a question, I just think are better answers is all.

Maybe The question changed since I read it, but it just asked "what happens if an unintended TPK happens".

I don't get this "Game Over" reference being made. The game can continue on. It isn't like the DM just scraps all the work the players put into the world and tells them they are no longer allowed to finish the campaign to see where it goes. Well, one I know did that because he couldn't handle being a DM and found his heavy railroad game failed when someone didn't want to choose every door he wanted them to choose.

But there is no game over, unless all players want it to be so.

Some of the best game I had were near, or actual TPKs.

No DM can judge what the dice will do. Even a seemingly weak encounter could turn into a TPK due to bad dice rolls.

The players continuing or not is what maters most, not each and every character, otherwise you might as well remove any death from the game and just let them walk through it if fear of death is not present.

So what happens is they die and you keep going from a slightly altered and backtracked course of events to continue on.

[Hat-Trick]

If your world supports it, the heroes may be resurrected by the local adventurer's guild for a small favor in return. No game over, just a manditory "side" quest.

[mistformsquirrl]

Depends entirely upon the type of game, the players, and the DM honestly.

If you've got an ultra-gritty campaign setting where life is cheap - then you probably re-roll characters.

Same is probably true of a hack and slash campaign, where the story isn't all that important and if the characters die *shrug*, no one cares.

On the other hand, if you've got a deep plot going - say your characters are involved in the Fate of the World and such an ending would be horribly anticlimactic (ie: Not Fun), the DM can pull all kinds of tricks to keep things together.

Several possibilities:

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A) You didn't die, you were all knocked out instead. This one can strain disbelief, depending on the foe; but against the right enemy it can cause all kinds of interesting situations. (Often involving prison breaks with sometimes hilarious consequences. *remembers party fighter killing a lizardman with his dirty loincloth (choked him) because he had no other weapons*

B) You died... but a DM PC, divine servant, powerful good creature, secret holy order, mysterious benefactor... etc... resurrects your party after the fact.

This has to be pulled off with finesse, as it's practically the definition of Deus Ex Machina (I mean literally, you often end up relying on Divine Intervention in such a situation) - but still, it can lead to interesting plotlines; especially depending on precisely who did the rezzing and why.

(As a note: This may require a house rule on Resurrection requiring the target be willing, a method of fooling the target into being willing, or simply making the rez caster have ulterior, though not necessarily evil, motives.)

C) Some of you died, but others were simply knocked out and no one bothered to check. (Works best when a player decides after such a wipe, that they want to switch characters)

In such a situation you end up with a handful of bedraggled survivors trying to limp their way to relative safety.

-- A risk here is that if one of the survivors is a cleric of high enough level, the players who are switching characters would need a good reason to be un-rezzable. Possible explanations: Looted of material components; Soul bound (could be a plot hook; but can cause someone to ask why they weren't all soulbound); some bodies desecrated or a spell of some kind cast on the area disallowing resurrection. Etc...

D) Much like B in that it's blatant Deus Ex - the party is pulled from certain doom at the last moment by a summon spell of some variety. The origin of such a spell could be all sorts of places. Unlike B), this does not require any manipulation of the common resurrection rules (unless perhaps a character died in transit, but since we're talking DM fiat anyway, that only happens if someone is switching characters).

Another nice thing is that the aprty does not need to be willing; the person who pulled them from doom could have truly sinister motives. Perhaps they've been watching one of the PCs for a long time, but knew they'd never be able to capture them with the party intact... but with everyone nearly dead...

Mwahahaaa... let the experiments begin! Leads to possibly wackier hijinx than a common jailbreak - as beating opponent's the death with half a flesh golem is just plain entertaining >.>

E) Mulligan - I don't like this option much as it doesn't just risk the destruction of your suspension of disbelief... it deliberately destroys it. The only exception being if you make some sort of caveat with "But thankfully it was all just a dream..." - which still will probably sound stupid unless you are a true master of storytelling >.< (I have however seen something similar done well... so I discount nothing.)

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All of the above methods and more can be used to keep a TPK'd party alive and thus, the story moving forward.

The question you have to ask yourself in using one of the above as a DM is:

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1) Is the campaign good enough that it's worth going to this length? If the campaign is good, then a little loss of suspension of disbelief won't hurt to bad. But if it's a campaign that's dragging anyway... a reboot isn't a bad idea.

2) Will I still be able to ensure my players fear death, even if I can't afford to kill them from a story perspective?

One way is to make certain to enforce the level loss on being raised; perhaps even going so far as to inflict it even if using the "you were just unconcious" method.

This of course depends - if it was purely your fault as the DM, I wouldn't do this, because it was your screw up. If it was your player's being idiots though, they probably aught to suffer the consequences.

You also want to make sure not to use this every time a PC would die - only in the event of a TPK or otherwise horribly story-ruining situation. If it's just one or two players who bite the dust, but the others survive, leave it up to them to get their comrades resurrected or not.

(Obviously, this is all just general advice - one can still have an enjoyable game with a 'soft' DM who never lets you die; but it requires more work in other areas to make up for it. Likewise you can have a good campaign with a DM who's a complete hardarse about death - but the DM has to be really on the ball to make sure he or she does not screw you over with something way beyond your power level unless you brought it on yourself.)

3) What are the storyline consequences? Does word get out that the players are 'dead'? Can they use this to their advantage, or is it perhaps a huge disadvantage? (Loss of titles and land for instance for a noble; proving that you are still alive could be quite difficult, depending on the world)

How you handle the storyline consequences is a Big Deal. Possibly the biggest part of it really. Pull it off right and your players will be quite pleased and your story will continue without problem - perhaps with new and interesting NPCs to explore that never would have come up otherwise.

Done wrong... campaign will sink as suspension of disbelief dissolves and fear of the reaper evaporates.

That's how I handle it as a DM and have seen it handled by others, anyway >.<m

[Devils_Advocate]

If they were smart and had the means to do so, the party arranged for someone to resurrect them in the event of their unfortunate demise.

I'm just not sure why so many people are eager to have that automatically mean "Back to character creations guys"

I think the idea is that there needs to be a meaningful chance of failure in order for success to feel meaningful. If everyone can get killed, then keeping the group alive becomes an accomplishment.

So, that's one approach. Of course, you can go the opposite direction and say "It's about the journey, not the destination." From that perspective, ending the journey is bad.

[Origomar]

Ugh, the worst is when PCs have been spoiled by MMORPGs. They expect every character they make somehow "deserves" if not to reach high-level then to have a glorious death the bards will sing of for ages. They bitch horribly if they just step on an unlucky tile and get beheaded by a guillotine from behind, because it's "no fun" and "boring" that their hero-to-be got taken out like a chump.

lol thats hillarious, just to be cruel i must do that if i ever DM a game with level 1s

Edit : this is why i dont think i should DM

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If they were smart and had the means to do so, the party arranged for someone to resurrect them in the event of their unfortunate demise.

The PCs then take up the role of a second party setting out to recover the bodies of the original group.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The PCs then take up the role of a second party setting out to recover the bodies of the original group.

Cue women impaled on poles and Italian courts going bananas over how realistic it looks.

[Panda-s1]

Ugh, the worst is when PCs have been spoiled by MMORPGs. They expect every character they make somehow "deserves" if not to reach high-level then to have a glorious death the bards will sing of for ages. They bitch horribly if they just step on an unlucky tile and get beheaded by a guillotine from behind, because it's "no fun" and "boring" that their hero-to-be got taken out like a chump.

Hell I'd bitch endlessly about it, that really sucks, and is anti-climactic when compared to the effort I put into that character, and possibly what background and story I wrote about them.

And I don't even play MMORPGs.

Had this happen recently. Our party tried to escape through a water filled tunnel. The DM gave plenty of hints that this wouldn't work, but we foolishly pressed on and proceeded to drown.

The DM then not sure how to proceed decided to have the cleric of the group have a vision from his god. We rewound time a bit and had the whole drowning episode as a vision. Thus the cleric convinced the party that we shouldn't try that plan.

Sum up. Sometimes players are stupid and deserve to die. Some times stuff happens and things go poorly.

Oh wow, that reminds me of that one scene in Up :P

[mistformsquirrl]

I would agree with you Panda-s1.

It's got nothing to do with MMOs - it has *everything* to do with playstyle.

Really it's something that's existed far longer than MMOs. It's a difference in player and DM types; and there's nothing wrong with one point of view or the other - but you do need to mesh up with likeminded players/DM so you don't wind up with a game that's frustrating.

Players/DMs who are most interested in telling a specific character's stories will probably keep permanent death as a last resort.

Players/DMs who are more interested in D&D as a game (or alternatively, a very hardcore/gritty type world where anyone can die at any time) will probably have death almost guaranteeing a reroll.

Neither is wrong.

Same is true of any other situation where there's a fundamental difference of perspective between player and DM. As long as both players and DM communicate what they're after in a campaign, things can run smoothly; though it may mean a player or two not joining the campaign that may otherwise have, the game is better off for both player and DM that way.

Obviously this assumes a relatively random grouping of people - when it's a group of close friends its tougher; but that's where compromise comes in so that both sides can be accommodated as reasonably as possible.

[TheThan]

I would like to see several parties of adventurers hired in succession to complete a task, only all of them have failed. Especially if they were all the same players.

[FMArthur]

TPKs generally only happen when:

• The party is level 1-3 and they get an unlucky roll
• The DM does not know his party's skill level beforehand and/or doesn't care to adjust for lesser players
• The party is level 4-8 and they get quite a lot of bad rolls
• The DM is bad at estimating the danger level of certain abilities used by monsters (Mind Blast! Everyone save or TPK!)
• The party is level 9-14 and they get a ridiculous amount of unlucky rolls
• The DM tries to 'railroad' the players with an unwinnable battle (and acts surprised when his players do what players always do)
• The party is level 15+ and they get an unlucky roll
• The DM just hates his players
• The DM doesn't want to DM anymore and is generating a TPK as an excuse
• The PCs try to save a CE PC who is about to have a learning experience
• The PCs do something monumentally stupid of their own accord

A smart party and a smart DM combine into a game that never sees a TPK. Hell, a dumb party with a smart DM can do a good job of avoiding one, but a dumb party with a dumb DM has a decent risk of a TPK. A smart party with a dumb DM invariably recieves a TPK.