What about Dragonfire Adepts? (And other Invoking classes) [3.5]

[13_CBS]

I was reading this thread about Warlocks and whether or not they were broken, and I started wondering where other invoking classes like Dragonfire Adepts were on the power scale. Certainly lower than full casters, I'd expect, but how much lower? And how useful are they in a party in terms of dealing damage (I'd suspect not much, but better than a Warlock) and support (probably better than a Warlock here too)? What about other roles?

[Thorin]

As i said in that post, is all relative

The invokers are way better in a encounter-intensive kind of campaign. Being able to do things all day long is a uber bust in this situations.

[SilveryCord]

To reiterate what Thorin said, df adepts and warlocks won't shine if the party is only dealing with one or two encounters, but when the 'real' casters are running out of spell slots circa 4 and 5, they can shore up for the weaknesses other characters have.
Wizards (and psions, especially!!!) can single handedly deal with a single encounter of appropriate CR; but three more encounters and they won't be looking so pretty. oh wait 3.5 full spellcasters? not being able to handle multiple CR appropriate encounters? yeah forget I said anything

[Keld Denar]

DFAs are good. They are somewhere above a warlock, but below a BC centric wizard. They don't get ALL the options a wizard does, but they get a lot more options than a warlock, IMO. Between their breath weapon + Entangling Exhalation and their decent Invocations (like the Solid Fog one), a DFA can control the battlefield decently. With a little shananigans and some Metabreath feats, they can even pack quite a punch every now and again.

All in all, a DFA is great support for like, a Crusader, a Rogue, a Bard, and a Druid, but in a party of Incantatrix and DMM Persist Clerics and high powered Druids, they will feel underwhelming.

[Mr.Moron]

They fall someone in the middle to low-middle (depending on the specific character) section of the power curve in most cases. Somewhere around at or just below the martial adept classes.

EDIT: Above post is better than mine. Though keep in mind the space between a warlock and a wizard is a pretty massive gulf.

[AmberVael]

Dragonfire Adepts are considered to be more powerful than Warlocks, but generally are limited to a single type of effective build (battlefield control) due to the way their powers are allocated.

Better than warlocks, but limited in versatility (and by this I do not mean versatility in game so much as I mean versatility in character creation) in an extreme manner.

[Kris Strife]

Huh. DFA threads are starting to get more common. Kind of nice to see actually since I'm playing one in a campaign right now.

[Thrawn183]

There are a couple of things to remember about DFA's:
1) They can easily be built to rely on only their supernatural breath weapon in combat, thus allowing them to wear fullplate even though they aren't proficient.
2) They are primarily a Con based class, this can lead to character with a bunch of hit points.
3) Many of their breath effects work even if the enemy makes their save, at really high level getting slowed for a round every other round regardless of whether or not you make your save is really tough.
4) DFA's damage output is never going to really boggle your mind.
5) DFA's can make party members immune to their breath weapons, this generally results in a lot easier use of your class abilites, and just a lot more fun for everybody involved.

I played a gnomish dragonborn DFA with a starting 18(22 arfter racials) in Con, full plate and was permanently reduced down to tiny. Through UMD I was able to cover the arcane casting for the party, I had the highest HP and AC, while with endurance and steadfast determination I had the best fort and will saves in the party. Yeah, I failed every reflex save under the sun, but outside of that I was basically unstoppable.

On the other hand, everybody else had fun because I couldn't really kill anything. I think that was one of my 3 favorite characters. Oh yeah, I named him Eli Inferno.

[wadledo]

If warlocks have access to DFA invocations, and vice versa, is there any particularly terrible about this?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

There is quite a bit of crossover between the two classes. DFA get Fell Flight, for example.

[Person_Man]

The Warlock's power depends heavily on the individual build and campaign. If you really know what you're doing and you're campaigning in the World's Largest Dungeon, then they rock. If you don't know what you're doing and you're playing in a one shot campaign, they suck.

Dragonfire Adept is a very powerful class. If you don't know what you're doing but take the time to read their class abilities, you tend to deal reasonable damage plus a secondary effect every single turn to multiple enemies. If you know what you're doing, they really rock. More specifically:

Fabulous battlefield control: Solid Fog, Fear.
Mobility: Flight, excellent ranged attacks.
Defense: Energy Resistance/Immunity, high AC (natural armor, plus can wear any armor. The penalty for non-proficiency is a penalty to Skills you never use, and attack rolls, which you never make), 2 good Saves, d8 hit points and high Con, minor DR.
Skill Monkey: Excellent Skills, buffs to social and Knowledge Skills, Invisibility.
Anti-magic: Greater Dispel Magic, Su and Ex abilities.

Your only weaknesses are your Reflex Save (fixed with high Dex and Ref boosting item(s) and fighting enemies with high Ref/Evasion (fixed by switching to wands - you have UMD).