Avoiding True sight

[Asheram]

As the title say, is there any magical way to trump True Sight?

I'd fill it out with some flavor text, but I wouldn't know what to say.
I know that True sight doesn't work with mundane disguises, but still, is there a way to magically avoiding it without having to dip into the Epic books?

[Keld Denar]

Stay 120+ feet away?

Also, mundane Disguise and Hide checks work vs TS.

Its hotly debated whether or not Mind Blank protects against True Sight. There is a lot of debate back and forth that a 6th level spell shouldn't trump an 8th level spell even with TS's absolute statement and whatnot.

Then there is the balance issue. A character with Superior Invisibility (only pierced by True Sight) and Mind Blank (debatably fools True Sight) would be completely unlocatable in most circumstances.

[Asheram]

Stay 120+ feet away?

Also, mundane Disguise and Hide checks work vs TS.

Its hotly debated whether or not Mind Blank protects against True Sight. There is a lot of debate back and forth that a 6th level spell shouldn't trump an 8th level spell even with TS's absolute statement and whatnot.

Then there is the balance issue. A character with Superior Invisibility (only pierced by True Sight) and Mind Blank (debatably fools True Sight) would be completely unlocatable in most circumstances.

I don't mind much about the balance issues... It just bugs me that there is such an "absolute detection" spell and no loopholes... Especially when this is a L6 spell as you say.. (L5 for clerics)
I guess a clear way to avoid it would be the Seed:Ward from the epic handbook, but that is too overkill for me...

[Guancyto]

Well, a lot of the potential casters of TS don't have very good Spot modifiers.

So yeah, plain old Hide and Disguise.

[Lamech]

Mind blank. Say it with me folks mind blank. Its got one of those absolute statements in it. I would not allow this if I was DM.

[erikun]

How does Mind Blank protect from True Seeing? The spell says that it "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects" as well as "information gathering by divination". It also protects against scrying, such that "the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected."

True Seeing does not try reading the mind, it does not try to gather information through divination (like Augury), and it isn't scrying. It simply "see all things as they actually are," and Mind Blank doesn't give invisibility.

Now, there are a few ways to bypass True Seeing. Plain old vision is still impaired, so fog (magical or not) will block sight. So does stuff like Wall of Iron. Wall of Force can be seen through, but True Seeing still doesn't give line-of-sight. (You can't cast a spell at someone on the other side of a Wall of Force, reguardless of how well you can spot them.) I would rule that an Anti-Magic Field would "block" the True Seeing, so you would remain invisible standing on the other side of an AMF, and the TSer wouldn't know the difference.

And while not a counter, Gaze attacks (such as from a Medusa) are a great stopgag against a True Seer.

[Yora]

Which makes completely no sense. Arcane eye explicitly states that you see things exactly as if you were standing there and seeing things with your own eyes. And as it's not a spell that reads minds or detects the presence or absence of intelligent minds, even a mind blank spell shouldn't counter it.
Some spells maybe would reveal that one of the persons you see in the room apperently has no mind at all, but that's all the spell is suppossed to do.

Regarding the initial question: Monty Python did an educational tranining video on this. ^^

[Fitz10019]

And while not a counter, Gaze attacks (such as from a Medusa) are a great stopgag against a True Seer.

Hah, that's great! You carry a permanently invisible medusa head, with a visible and quite fashionable leather strap-handle.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Be an orc who relies on a Hat of Disguise for clothing.

[Yukitsu]

Cast blindness on him?

[erikun]

^ And Yukitsu comes up with the obvious answer that everyone else passed over.

Arcane eye explicitly states that you see things exactly as if you were standing there and seeing things with your own eyes.

Arcane Eye is specifically a scrying (remote viewing) spell, and thus specifically affected by Mind Blank. True Seeing is not a scrying spell, and would not be affected. A technicality, I'm sure, but it's RAI as I read it.

Hah, that's great! You carry a permanently invisible medusa head, with a visible and quite fashionable leather strap-handle.

Better yet, take a cue from the Aegis and stick an invisible medusa head onto your shield. Good luck trying to fight you with True Seeing then!

Or just be an invisible medusa yourself. Either way works.

[Talic]

Obscuring Mist.
Anything that blocks LOE.

[Keld Denar]

Best way to mess with people who have True Sight? Open up your copy of Cityscape and find the Invisible Spell feat. Guess what it does? It makes a spells effect invisible. "How does that help me?" you ask? Well, you can't see an invisible spell effect, can you? Nope. So it wouldn't restrict your vision in any way, would it? Nope. It wouldn't even block line of sight, would it? Nope.

Now, cast an Invisible Fog Cloud. Or an Invisible Deeper Darkness.

For you, and all of your non-True Seeing friends, the day is clear and the sun is shining. You can see for miles and miles. Anyone with True Sight trying to look at you, though, sees only murky fog or inpenetrable darkness. Sucks to be them...

[Yukitsu]

I prefer putting that on Simulacrums, actually.

Guy with true sight: "Is that a snowman attacking us?"
Party: "What snowman?"

*Edit

I like creating water using shades to make fake water that's invisibly frozen into ice, shaved into snow, made into a snowman, crafted into an invisible simulacrum while I have shadow casting, actually. That does basically what the OP wants, so long as you don't mind your fighting representation having half the normal class levels.

[Talic]

Best way to mess with people who have True Sight? Open up your copy of Cityscape and find the Invisible Spell feat. Guess what it does? It makes a spells effect invisible. "How does that help me?" you ask? Well, you can't see an invisible spell effect, can you? Nope. So it wouldn't restrict your vision in any way, would it? Nope. It wouldn't even block line of sight, would it? Nope.

Now, cast an Invisible Fog Cloud. Or an Invisible Deeper Darkness.

For you, and all of your non-True Seeing friends, the day is clear and the sun is shining. You can see for miles and miles. Anyone with True Sight trying to look at you, though, sees only murky fog or inpenetrable darkness. Sucks to be them...

Fog cloud would work. Darkness wouldn't, since the effect which lets you see the darkness lets you see through it.

Would work for See Invisibility though.

[Kyeudo]

How does Mind Blank protect from True Seeing? The spell says that it "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects" as well as "information gathering by divination". It also protects against scrying, such that "the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected."

True Seeing does not try reading the mind, it does not try to gather information through divination (like Augury), and it isn't scrying. It simply "see all things as they actually are," and Mind Blank doesn't give invisibility.

You are forgetting the one point that allows Mind Blank to come up in these arguements. True Seeing is itself a divination. Anything that you get from the spell that you can't normally see is information gathered by a divination.

I personally wouldn't rule it to work, but by the RAW Mind Blank tells True Seeing to go cry in a corner.

[Yukitsu]

I'd argue that the information gathering is done via sight, and that the illusion is edited out by true sight by itself does nothing to gather information. It merely prevents confounds from interfering with a method that you already have.

[Keld Denar]

Really, with MB and TS, its an Unstoppable Force/Immovable Object arguement. Both include absolute statements which include the other effect. One blocks all Divinations which gather information (True Sight gathers optical information) and the other pierces ALL magical deceptions, regardless of nature.

If you plan on encountering either, talk to your DM first, since its better to have that debate and come to a conclusion out of the game than to sit around the game table and argue about it endlessly.

[erikun]

Ah! I think I see the conflict now.

Mind you, I read True Seeing as "seeing through illusions" and any information gained is a sideaffect, not part of the spell itself - hence, I didn't see how Mind Blank would help. I can see how people would interpret it differently, though.

Then again, I'm the kind of DM who would allow someone to attempt Pun-Punification, only to point out the critical misinterpretation on the character's part. (Really? You think a lowly 9th level spell gives you control over something with Divine Ranks?) Of course, I'm also the DM who would throw invisible medusae at PCs with permanent True Seeing.

[Jack_Simth]

As a DM? Say Nondetection works. Puts things back to a game of dice; the guy with True Seeing rolls his caster level check against a DC based on the caster level of the Nondetection effect. Simple, not particularly heavy-handed, and Nondetection's material costs are on par with True Sight's material costs.

[Curmudgeon]

If you really want to mess with someone using True Seeing, I recommend using Invisible Spell with Whiteout (Frostburn). There's no saving throw and no SR to target them. Their visibility is limited to 5 feet, and even then they're taking a -4 penalty to Spot.

Without True Seeing, they're just inside a breeze.

[Lamech]

Use polymorph any object on some pebbles or ants or somesuch. Make them into dragons or whatever. Guess what you see. The true form. Teeheehee...
DM: Okay you enter the room. Do you have true seeing?
Hapless PC: Yes
DM: You see three pebbles. Roll initiative..
PC: Why? 23 Umm... I inspect the pebbles.
DM: They full attack you. You die.
PC: ... I hate you.

[Asheram]

All interesting ideas... but I was thinking of alter self, invisibility, polymporph, shapeshange... Where it's kind of the point to become... well... unnoticable or easily ignorable.

True Seeing just kills these options.

[J.Gellert]

Homebrew a level 7 spell that specifically defeats True Seeing. Call it False Sight or something, probably Abjuration or Illusion. No one is going to be preparing it routinely anyway, so it's likely going to be mostly an NPC spell.

And don't tell your players about it until they defeat the user and get his spellbook.

[Killer Angel]

Really, with MB and TS, its an Unstoppable Force/Immovable Object arguement. Both include absolute statements which include the other effect. One blocks all Divinations which gather information (True Sight gathers optical information) and the other pierces ALL magical deceptions, regardless of nature.

Well, MB "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects".
TS is a spell of Divination school.
MB is 8th level, TS is a 6th level.
Then again, "Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it"

By RAW, I don't think TS had a chance against MB.

TS would pierce through my invisibility... if there wasn't active MB, which blocks the divination. The combination of 2 spells protects me from your TS.

[Killer Angel]

All interesting ideas... but I was thinking of alter self, invisibility, polymporph, shapeshange... Where it's kind of the point to become... well... unnoticable or easily ignorable.

True Seeing just kills these options.

Sadly, yes.
TS is a very powerful spells, made exactly to see through the spells you'd listed (and through darkness, etc).
This is why you need someone else to protect you from TS.
At low levels, the easiest available solution, is non-detection... but the caster of TS, had a solid chance to made the ST.

[Eldariel]

Then there is the balance issue. A character with Superior Invisibility (only pierced by True Sight) and Mind Blank (debatably fools True Sight) would be completely unlocatable in most circumstances.

This isn't entirely true; Epic Spot-checks penetrate invisibility. Superior doesn't even grant any kind of benefit against them (although in name of fairness, I'd allow a character under Superior Invisibility to always count as an inanimate living object). DC60 to locate a character under Superior Invisibility.

Now, there are a few ways to bypass True Seeing. Plain old vision is still impaired, so fog (magical or not) will block sight. So does stuff like Wall of Iron. Wall of Force can be seen through, but True Seeing still doesn't give line-of-sight. (You can't cast a spell at someone on the other side of a Wall of Force, reguardless of how well you can spot them.) I would rule that an Anti-Magic Field would "block" the True Seeing, so you would remain invisible standing on the other side of an AMF, and the TSer wouldn't know the difference.

This cannot work by the rules though, since Anti-Magic Field does not block line of sight or line of effect; spells work fine through it, only the area under AMF is unable to be affected. If a spell ends in an AMF, it's suppressed until the AMF ends, but going through one is no problem.

Also, this brings up a bigger problem; if you make True Seeing possible/easy to negate, you may end up in a situation, where the best invisibility is better than best detection, which essentially means it's possible for basically any character to be completely undetectable when it suits their purposes, which sucks for playing purposes.

Best detection should always trump best protection, or at least provide reasonably doable means to do so.

[Gaiyamato]

Personally I find invisibility more broken and anoying that TS.
I allow TS to be unstoppable and sometimes even make it a lower level spell.

I sometimes also extend TS to give huge bonuses to see through disguises.

The only time I don't do this is if the PCs are not trying to do stupid and/or broken stuff with invisibility etc.

That said Mind blank quite clearly states any divination spells used to gather information etc. etc.
Saying that that does not stop FS is just playing semantics.

ALL Divination spells essentially do not work on the character, though the spells do still work.

Hence why I often ban mind blank. lol.

[BobVosh]

Well, MB "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects".
TS is a spell of Divination school.
MB is 8th level, TS is a 6th level.
Then again, "Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it"

By RAW, I don't think TS had a chance against MB.

TS would pierce through my invisibility... if there wasn't active MB, which blocks the divination. The combination of 2 spells protects me from your TS.

Does "it" mean "mind" or "subject." You aren't using TS to read thier mind. Just my take on it.

True seeing sees through transmutation effects? Why? (polymorph/alter self) Seeing the world as it is implies seeing a human turn dragon as a dragon. Because he IS a dragon. Otherwise TS will be funny againist a lot of FR gods.

*ps* Keld, you are awesome for this:

Best way to mess with people who have True Sight? Open up your copy of Cityscape and find the Invisible Spell feat. Guess what it does? It makes a spells effect invisible. "How does that help me?" you ask? Well, you can't see an invisible spell effect, can you? Nope. So it wouldn't restrict your vision in any way, would it? Nope. It wouldn't even block line of sight, would it? Nope.

Now, cast an Invisible Fog Cloud. Or an Invisible Deeper Darkness.

Well, mostly awesome. Deeper darkness doesn't work.

[Killer Angel]

Also, this brings up a bigger problem; if you make True Seeing possible/easy to negate, you may end up in a situation, where the best invisibility is better than best detection, which essentially means it's possible for basically any character to be completely undetectable when it suits their purposes, which sucks for playing purposes.

Best detection should always trump best protection, or at least provide reasonably doable means to do so.

This problem exists both ways: you shouldn't have a character that, thanks to a single 6th level spell, is absolutely sure to overcome every magical defense. For every detection or protection, there should always be a countermeasure.
TS must be easy to negate? absolutely not.
Possible to negate? Yes, and an 8th level spell is not an easy thing (imo)