Illusion based PrCs?

[Ixahinon]

My RP group convinced me to branch out, try something new. Party needs arcane...it's a given, but I hate Boom mates (blow everything up before other people can do anything), and I LOVE necromancers. Necromancers are really just for NPCs/evil partys, sadly...so I don't think I can work one in to the party.

One RP groupie mentioned a 'mind****' mage. Illusionist/Enchanter...I have never touched Illusion spells, all the way back since the 2nd edition days...but I suppose now is the time to try. I know gnome is the goto race when dealing with Illusions, but I don't think I'm gonna branch out THAT much...gnomes don't really appeal to me. Probably human or elf...

...but other than the possibility of going Specialist Illusionist instead of Generalist...are they any PrCs good enough on illusion? Really, only the books labeled 'complete' are allowed (Complete Mage, Complete Arcane, etc)

I know this is a min/max forum for the most part..so PLEASE keep cheese out of the picture, keep it to generalist races...possibly LA +2 (just for ****s...doubt my DM will accept, she's semi new to DMing, and doesn't want too much crazyness. Mostly just cause I want to know...).

[thorgrim29]

Well, master specialist illusionist is pretty badass by itself (+2 to dc, concealment, and free silent and still for illusion spells at level 10).... nightmare spinner seems pretty weak though. Archmage is always fun too.

[yilduz]

Well, master specialist illusionist is pretty badass by itself (+2 to dc, concealment, and free silent and still for illusion spells at level 10).... nightmare spinner seems pretty weak though. Archmage is always fun too.

Yeah, the master specialist is insane for illusionist at level 10. Go with that. ;)

[Rob_The_Impaler]

Hmm, well I've seen a good build with them, Wizard/shadowcrafter(FR, Underdark)/Shadowcraft Mage (Races of D.) But unless your DM is willing to work with you on the shadowcraft Mage it's gnome only. I personaly like Nightmare spinner from CAr, you lose one caster level IIRC, but you get a save or die ability at level 5, three times per day.

I would also look into UA, for varients of classes, you can give up your pet, making people roll twice on saves, IIRC. (I'm away from my books at the moment so this is all of the top of my head) but I'd look into that. It matters what type of Specialist you want to be, the Mind**** mage, or the shadow mage...

Edit:Ninja'd....<.< somewhat

[Gnorman]

A wild suggestion, but don't go Wizard. You want a mind**** mage? Go Beguiler.

It has everything you want - tons of enchantment/illusion spells (though it is admittedly missing a few major standbys), INT-based casting, powerful class features that make you better the sneakier and more subtle you are, and tons of skill points which, given your INT dependence, only become more numerous. You can invest them all into social skills and mess with people all day long - if the wizard runs out of spells, that's pretty much it for his fun.

That being said, a Specialist Illusionist really benefits from both Master Specialist and Shadowcraft Mage (but if you try to play a Shadowcraft Mage without being a gnome, be wary of gnomish retribution [seriously, what's wrong with gnomes? They're the best PC race in 3.5!]). Nightmare Spinner is great, but for a sorcerer - its class features key off of CHA.

If you're FR, perhaps a dip into Shadow Adept might be helpful. Shadowcrafter is great in conjunction with quasireality.

[Myrmex]

Beguiler is awesome. It plays more like a rogue with spells than a mage.

[Deth Muncher]

For kicks, you should play a beguiler Beguiler. The former being a race of Pikachu-esque critters, who are from FR, as I recall. The latter, of course, being that aforementioned awesome class for illusions.

[Zaq]

My first impulse was Dread Witch from Heroes of Horror, but that's not on your approved book list, so I guess that won't work.

As mentioned by other people, Master Specialist is rarely if ever a bad choice, and the same can be said about Archmage. Archmage doesn't benefit an illusionist as much as it might another flavor of mage, but it does help.

Fatespinner, from Complete Arcane, might be a decent choice. It's usually quite beneficial to spend spin on illusions, since if you're using them right you'll often have quite a few creatures individually making saves against them.

Whatever class you choose, make sure that you have a way of foiling True Seeing. Something that will beef up your dispel checks is a good idea, or simply having a backup strategy that doesn't rely on illusions.

Personally I love combining the illusionist archetype with the summoner archetype... make a handful of summoned creatures and a handful of illusionary creatures. Which are which? Well, your opponents probably aren't going to like finding out. It's also very funny to start with illusionary creatures and make real ones if they disbelieve. They'll probably get a false sense of security ("Ha, look at that spellslinger over there, trying to frighten us with his tricks of the light! Yeah, we already know that your monster buddies there are just illuOHGODMYFACEWHYISITEATINGMYFACE"), which will result in lulz all around. If you go this route, the skill trick False Theurgy is critical. Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel) is a good choice for this concept.

Nightmare Spinner loses a caster level, but is a passable choice. Dread Witch is better, but you don't have Dread Witch, so there's that. If you go Nightmare Spinner, you might want to be a sorcerer rather than a wizard. The skills requirement will hit you a little bit harder, but some of their salient abilities are based off of Charisma, so that's worth considering. You don't really need to stay for the capstone, though... It's got a weak DC (15+CHA, and if you're not a CHA-based caster, meh) and it's got three relatively weak descriptors (death AND mind-affecting AND fear, so if you're immune to any of those, too bad). The "panicked even on save" effect is nice when you remember that fear effects stack and last for the longest duration involved, so if you can make them Shaken first for, oh, a minute (perhaps with Fell Frighten), then hit them with this, they'll be panicked for a full minute even if they do save, which is quite powerful, but I'm still not sure it's all that.

A couple of the abilities from the Paragnostic Apostle (Complete Champion) might be interesting, in particular Noble Presence and Discern Weakness (and possibly Backhanded Attack, depending on the spells you choose).

[Eldariel]

I definitely suggest a Shadowcraft Mage-build [Races of Stone]. And yeah, the mentioned Wizard X/Shadowcrafter 9/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is plenty good. One level of "Shadow Adept" [Player's Guide to Faerun] is a good way to finish it off. Wizard X/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 also rocks, but eh, Incantatrix...

I don't especially like Master Illusionist; it doesn't really give you much beyond increasing your CL and save DC; handy, but nothing out of the ordinary. The level 10 ability is nice, but being limited to 3 uses per day is not.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I definitely suggest a Shadowcraft Mage-build [Races of Stone]. And yeah, the mentioned Wizard X/Shadowcrafter 9/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is plenty good. One level of "Shadow Adept" [Player's Guide to Faerun] is a good way to finish it off. Wizard X/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 also rocks, but eh, Incantatrix...

I don't especially like Master Illusionist; it doesn't really give you much beyond increasing your CL and save DC; handy, but nothing out of the ordinary. The level 10 ability is nice, but being limited to 3 uses per day is not.

Do you need more than 3 uses a day of Silent and Still Spell? If you're unable to move or speak more than 3 times a day, there is a problem with more than the PrC.

But yeah, there aren't many Illusion-based PrCs. 1 level of Mindbender is always nice, if you take Mindsight, but generally you either go Shadowcraft Mage or you go with whatever generic PrCs you're fond of(anything to avoid more levels of Wizard). Of course, the best Mindbooper is the Beguiler, and it's a good class for the arcanist newbie, but YMMV.

[Ixahinon]

Personally I love combining the illusionist archetype with the summoner archetype... make a handful of summoned creatures and a handful of illusionary creatures. Which are which? Well, your opponents probably aren't going to like finding out. It's also very funny to start with illusionary creatures and make real ones if they disbelieve. They'll probably get a false sense of security ("Ha, look at that spellslinger over there, trying to frighten us with his tricks of the light! Yeah, we already know that your monster buddies there are just illuOHGODMYFACEWHYISITEATINGMYFACE"), which will result in lulz all around. If you go this route, the skill trick False Theurgy is critical. Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel) is a good choice for this concept.

This sounds like so much fun, it should be illegal...Gonna look in to doing this.

what is YMMV?

[Eldariel]

Do you need more than 3 uses a day of Silent and Still Spell? If you're unable to move or speak more than 3 times a day, there is a problem with more than the PrC.

Well, see, I'd rather use them for other purposes than just casting a spell when unable to move/speak; readied actions might have difficulty going off if they don't know when you're casting, it's much more useful in situations where you shouldn't be casting spells and so on. Really, making it blanket buff wouldn't break anything, but it'd be cool.


YMMV = your mileage may vary

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, see, I'd rather use them for other purposes than just casting a spell when unable to move/speak; readied actions might have difficulty going off if they don't know when you're casting, it's much more useful in situations where you shouldn't be casting spells and so on. Really, making it blanket buff wouldn't break anything, but it'd be cool.


YMMV = your mileage may vary

I think it's been ruled that even if you have no components to the spells, there is still visual evidence of the casting(DBZ-esque is most likely IMHO). However, according to Rules Compendium, it's only a Slight of Hand check to supprss all signs of casting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So you have access to the Core and Completes, but are there any other books you can use? Spell Compendium and PHB2 are fairly necessary for most games, and being able to use UA variants really helps out.

The 'best' illusionist builds use Shadowcraft Mage, in Races of Stone. It requires a feat from Player's Guide to Faerun called Signature Spell for supreme versatility, the feat itself is not setting specific despite only being found in that book. The Shadowcrafter prestige class in Underdark, another FR book, is also good for finishing out the build. The ideal build would be Gnome Illusionist 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 8. Use Chains of Disbelief, Shadow Shaper, and Illusion Mastery from UA, and Illusion Mastery will substitute for Spell Mastery when taking Signature Spell. Also get Ability Focus: Silent Image, along with Heighten Spell and Earth Spell in Races of Stone, as well as Residual Magic in Complete Mage. You can spontaneously convert a prepared spell into a Heightened Silent Image, and make it mimic any Evocation, Conjuration: Summoning, or Conjuration: Creation spell on the Wizard spell list. The DC will be 10 base, +2 Greater Spell Focus: Illusion, +2 Ability Focus, +2 Minor Esoterica, +spell level (one higher than the spell slot due to Earth Spell), +Int modifier. Earth Spell also increases your caster level by as much as it's Heightened by, or one less than the spell slot used for Silent Image. Put dirt in your shoes or get sandals made from stone slabs so you'll always be standing on stone or dirt to always benefit from Earth Spell.

[Talic]

For Shadowcraft mage, I generally take it one of two ways:

1) Wizard (Illusionist): ACF Focused Specialist (Complete Mage). When you can turn Heightened Silent Image into a heck of a lot? Having 3 dedicated illusion slots at every level isn't bad. Ban Evocation, Conjuration, and something else (as Shadowcraft gives you most of both).

2) Sorceror: ACF Metamagic Specialist (Complete Mage). Add heightened spell without increasing casting time? Shadowcraft Mages demolish the primary sorceror limitation (Limited Versatility), while retaining a healthy amount of spells per day.

Both give you hyper-real illusions. Of the two, Wizard is probably slightly stronger, but both are plenty strong. The strength is in the versatility. What can you cast?

Any spell matching the description in the SCM entry, and anything castable by anything you can summon with one of those spells. The number of options you have is almost dizzying. I suggest you keep a short list of favorites, that you draw up between games.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler also makes a decent Shadowcraft Mage, though it lacks the class features substitutions of Wizard as well as the benefits of Master Specialist. It's also probably not as good as using Sorcerer due to spell selection, but its skills and spell choices make it superb outside of combat as well.

A (Cloistered) Cleric with the Illusion and Gnome domains, and the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2, makes an amazing Shadowcraft Mage. It qualifies via the spell Dark Way (SC) with Heighten Spell, and it's particularly good with Divine Metamagic: Heighten and Night Sticks.