3.5-Improving the fighter

[Elfin]

Anyone got any ideas? Ill be dming my 2nd campaign soon, and im trying to upgrade the fighter to be as good as spellcasters at high levels.

[yilduz]

Meh, what difference does it make? Honestly, I've never seen anyone go Fighter 20.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Anyone got any ideas? Ill be dming my 2nd campaign soon, and im trying to upgrade the fighter to be as good as spellcasters at high levels.

Spirit Lion Totem ACF (Complete Champion) and Wolf Totem ACF (Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter6/Warblade14

[Elfin]

I know, but i've got a soft spot for the fighter, and im annoyed by all the warblades out there
So Im trying to make the fighter a class that people would go to 20 with.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I know, but i've got a soft spot for the fighter, and im annoyed by all the warblades out there

It's what you asked for.

So Im trying to make the fighter a class that people would go to 20 with.

Give it class features, such as Pounce, the ability to get feats without mental score prerequisites, extra mobility options, the ability to make up for poor will saves, and etc.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I know, but i've got a soft spot for the fighter, and im annoyed by all the warblades out there
So Im trying to make the fighter a class that people would go to 20 with.

Get Tome of Battle, white out, and a typewriter. Replace all instances of 'Warblade' with 'Fighter'. Done.

The problem is that martial classes have no ability to attack defenses other than AC/HP, no ability to force status conditions, are steadily outclassed by monsters at their role, require large amounts of magic gear just to do their job semi-competently, have trouble getting defenses beyond AC/HP/Fort, have no out-of combat capabilities beyond skill points, can't move without nerfing itself, and are downright boring to play. Any system you can come up with to mitigate most/all of those will be so far removed from the base class 'Fighter' that it will be at least as different as a Warblade is. Why reinvent the wheel?

[lsfreak]

Reinvenstion of the wheel. Not perfect, but from what I've looked through of it and its discussion seems like it would be around the same level as ToB stuff.

[Elfin]

Thanks Pharaoh's Fist. I'm also thinking of giving the fighter the ability to overcome DR

[Elfin]

And thanks to Isfreak as well
(sorry bout the double post)

[Baron Corm]

If you want to keep it uncomplicated, you could use the Pathfinder version (free on the Paizo website). They get static attack, damage, and AC bonuses during the odd levels, and a worthwhile capstone as well. I would take it to 20. Making fighters equal to spellcasters is a gigantic can of worms with a lot of opinions involved. Doing a search of the forums should get you more material than you could ever possibly want or need.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If you want to keep it uncomplicated, you could use the Pathfinder version (free on the Paizo website). They get static attack, damage, and AC bonuses during the odd levels, and a worthwhile capstone as well.

But it is still pursuing the same paradigm as the 3.5 fighter: Walk up and hit it.

Can the Paizo fighter bypass a Solid Fog? If not, then it's not fixed enough.

[Elfin]

The fighter really needs some more martial abilities to make them worthwhile, but ac and dmg bonuses might be a good addition...

For overcoming DR im thinking something along the lines of this-
At 11th level and after, when a fighter uses the full attack action, they can overcome 1 point of damage reduction per fighter level they have.

Does this seem too powerful?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The fighter really needs some more martial abilities to make them worthwhile, but ac and dmg bonuses might be a good addition...

For overcoming DR im thinking something along the lines of this-
At 11th level and after, when a fighter uses the full attack action, they can overcome 1 point of damage reduction per fighter level they have.

Does this seem too powerful?

The Sure Striking weapon enhancement, +1 or +2, overcomes multiple types of DR. It does it better, and earlier, than your class feature.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The fighter really needs some more martial abilities to make them worthwhile, but ac and dmg bonuses might be a good addition...

For overcoming DR im thinking something along the lines of this-
At 11th level and after, when a fighter uses the full attack action, they can overcome 1 point of damage reduction per fighter level they have.

Does this seem too powerful?

It's not worth it. There are charger builds being discussed in the Warlock thread right now dealing 60-120 damage per hit as a Fighter-based character at level 7. DR 10 is not a worry.

People: DAMAGE AND HITTING AREN'T THE PROBLEMS! Look at the list I made. Static AC/AB/Damage increases allow you to mitigate one of the problems, the part where a beatstick monster can make you eat your sword. You still need a way to fix the other 7 issues I could remember.

[Draz74]

Reinvenstion of the wheel. Not perfect, but from what I've looked through of it and its discussion seems like it would be around the same level as ToB stuff.

You stole my post.

[GreyMantle]

Races of War (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=681572) is pretty much the win as far as fighter fixes go. The only thing you should know is that, out of the box, the martial classes are better than stupid casters (blasters, healers, etc), so lots of people think it's overpowered.

And Sstoopidtallkid is absolutely right. Fighters can already get decent numbers, their main problem is an ability to affect the game in ways that don't involve ubercharging or whatever. That's partially why Pathfinder fails horribly.

[AslanCross]

The fighter really needs some more martial abilities to make them worthwhile, but ac and dmg bonuses might be a good addition...

For overcoming DR im thinking something along the lines of this-
At 11th level and after, when a fighter uses the full attack action, they can overcome 1 point of damage reduction per fighter level they have.

Does this seem too powerful?

I know you don't like Warblades, but seriously---they have everything that you're trying to add here. It's easy enough to file off the serial numbers and give the maneuvers generic names instead of fancy ones.

[Elfin]

true...and good point about the DR. Should i make it better or abandon that entirely?
and i really do need to find a way to make the fighter more flexible

[Baron Corm]

But it is still pursuing the same paradigm as the 3.5 fighter: Walk up and hit it.

Can the Paizo fighter bypass a Solid Fog? If not, then it's not fixed enough.

Allow me to show you the second half of that post:

Making fighters equal to spellcasters is a gigantic can of worms with a lot of opinions involved. Doing a search of the forums should get you more material than you could ever possibly want or need.

Pathfinder does not address the issue of fighter vs solid fog. I was hoping to avoid another 20-page thread about this (aren't we past this already GitP?), but here is my opinion ():

In my opinion, this is not a problem with the fighter, but with spells in general. Sstoopidtallkid mentioned 8 (?) issues. The barbarian, ranger, rogue, etc. have the same issues. The OP has said that he is not experienced, so I would advise him to deal with things as they come up. If a player in his game is defeating every encounter with celerity + solid fog, change the spells or change the encounter. Something is not working. That's part of being a good DM.

[Elfin]

I guess warblades aren't too bad...but im not ready to abandon this just yet- I still think the fighter can be improved without altering it beyond recognition.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

In my opinion, this is not a problem with the fighter, but with spells in general. Sstoopidtallkid mentioned 8 (?) issues. The barbarian, ranger, rogue, etc. have the same issues. The OP has said that he is not experienced, so I would advise him to deal with things as they come up. If a player in his game is defeating every encounter with celerity + solid fog, change the spells or change the encounter. Something is not working. That's part of being a good DM.

But it's far easier to get power-ups through players than nerfs.

i guess warblades aren't too bad...but im not ready to abandon this just yet- i still think the fighter can be improved without altering it beyond recognition.

Want to fix them? I'll try, but really, in everything but mechanics, the Warblade is the Fighter.

• Make them able to move+Full Attack(but no other full-round actions). Pounce is given to everyone free, to keep Charging relevant.
• Give all PC and NPC classes a scaling boost to AC, AB, and Damage, based on BAB.
• Allow them to situationally pass through miss chance
• Situationally make Touch attacks
• interrupt enemy actions
• allow martial capabilities to break magic defenses(Wind Wall etc) with some sort of check
• make the combat maneuvers besides trip worthwhile at higher levels, including some way of limiting the impact of huge monsters
• make skills more relevant, including boosting the number of skill points and combining certain skills, and making situations where skills apply more applicable. This will still not be enough to surpass certain magic(Fly, Knock, Silence, Invisibility together eliminate about half the skills in the game), but it's a start

Note that I didn't even try to balance any of that. It's a starting point, not a set of rules. And IMHO, any final version will end up too far from the fighter to be considered the same class anymore.

[Elfin]

I guess warblades aren't too bad...but im not ready to abandon this just yet- I still think the fighter can be improved without altering it beyond recognition.

actually i guess it really is true that any improved fighter class will be unrecognisable. maybe my best bet is the warblade

EDIT: just looked the warblade over again and it actually looks pretty good

[AslanCross]

There are a few alternate class features that give the Fighter other abilities other than bonus feats:
-PHB2 has Elusive Attack, Counterattack, and Overpowering Attack. They're kind of difficult to use since they come at high levels and also require full round attacks.
-Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape). It gives the Fighter some bonuses, and some incredible damage output as early as Lv 6. That still only gives you an incentive until Lv 6, though.

[TheThan]

The problem is the system hampers fighters. Since I already typed this out I’m just going to quote myself.

Combat sucks:
Doing anything outside of straight hit point damage is difficult for a character to pull off, and hard for a player to be able to do. This goes against the basic idea of the game: kill monsters, take their stuff. Oddly enough this leads to two different styles of characters; straight hit point damage (PA great sword), and specialized characters that are good at doing an advanced attack (trip monkeys, uberchargers). The problem is they become so specialized that they are easily thwarted and have no versatility.

Now in order to fix this, you have to rebuild the system from scratch to make melee combat fun again. A fighter should not be penalized for doing what he is designed to do. 4E has the right idea. If you want to trip something, you simply use your trip power and if you hit them, poof they’re prone. I’m not sure I like the way 4E goes about it, but the basic idea is pretty sound.

[Elfin]

Aslan actually those look pretty enticing. Better get my hands on a copy of the phb2

[Hat-Trick]

I have a partial fix for you, but I'm going to go on a tangent here, so bear with. Why is it that a trained and/or experienced practitioner of the arts of war don't get better defense as they gain more experience? Why is it that damage does nothing other than make a number smaller? Why is it that One is unable to improve their damage output without magic or obscure and almost railroading tactic such as ubercharge?

The first thing is an increasing AC bonus, much like the defense bonus in UA. In fact, let combat classes (full bab) stack it with their armor. Second, maybe giving them the (at least limited) ability to attack stats would help get past "anything over zero and I'm okay" thing. Third, you might also consider giving them a damage bonus equal to half their bab, to help keep them relevant.

[Elfin]

I have a partial fix for you, but I'm going to go on a tangent here, so bear with. Why is it that a trained and/or experienced practitioner of the arts of war don't get better defense as they gain more experience? Why is it that damage does nothing other than make a number smaller? Why is it that One is unable to improve their damage output without magic or obscure and almost railroading tactic such as ubercharge?

The first thing is an increasing AC bonus, much like the defense bonus in UA. In fact, let combat classes (full bab) stack it with their armor. Second, maybe giving them the (at least limited) ability to attack stats would help get past "anything over zero and I'm okay" thing. Third, you might also consider giving them a damage bonus equal to half their bab, to help keep them relevant.

I like it.

[ken-do-nim]

My 2 cents:

Everyone always complains that the biggest problem for the melee classes is dealing with spells like solid fog and the whole versatility thing. In my experience, this is dealt with by giving out or making available magic items.

My biggest beef with the 3.5 fighter is simply the will save.

As for taking it to level 20, I thought that PHBII went a long way towards that, as other posters have noted.

[Hat-Trick]

Just tack them on with the feats. Since the Fighter is so subpar anyway, it should be alright.

I just thought about how to handle stat damage. Every ten points of damage dealt in one attack causes one point of damage to anyone physical (possibly mental, but the physical are easier to explain and pull off) stat, depending on how the attack is executed. So instead of saying "I attack the orc again," your players will be rewarded for saying "I aim for his thigh, to ruin his mobility" by possible DEX damage.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My 2 cents:

Everyone always complains that the biggest problem for the melee classes is dealing with spells like solid fog and the whole versatility thing. In my experience, this is dealt with by giving out or making available magic items.

If an NPC class could do the job as well as you, you don't really matter much. Too many magic items only serve to obscure the class, not improve it. Besides, you'd need a huge list of magic items. I can only think of 2 that would work v Solid Fog, for instance.