3.5-Improving the fighter

[Pharaoh's Fist]

No, but I know how this works. Whenever I would cite a feat that the Fighter would likely get if he got a whole bucket of feats available to take, this supposedly unoptimized wizard would gain another spell custom-fit for the situation.

So I'm cutting to the chase.

Good job, Nostradamus.

[Lycanthromancer]

No, but I know how this works. Whenever I would cite a feat that the Fighter would likely get if he got a whole bucket of feats available to take, this supposedly unoptimized wizard would gain another spell custom-fit for the situation.

So I'm cutting to the chase.

Because wizards CAN do that. They can prepare any number of spells, and have divination which allows them to do just that.

And if all else fails, any wizard should have several haversacks full of scrolls that they can whip out and cast at a whim.

And that's not optimization; that's just using their class abilities as intended.

[Hat-Trick]

Something tells me that rendering all other classes useless wasn't intended.

[Lycanthromancer]

Something tells me that rendering all other classes useless wasn't intended.

If so, they wouldn't have given the wizard all of those 'I make everyone else useless with no attack roll or save or SR check' spells.

[Flickerdart]

No, but I know how this works. Whenever I would cite a feat that the Fighter would likely get if he got a whole bucket of feats available to take, this supposedly unoptimized wizard would gain another spell custom-fit for the situation.

So I'm cutting to the chase.

The Wizard can learn and prepare far more spells than the Fighter has feats, and those spells are more potent. For every "likely" Fighter feat, you're committed to having that one. For every "likely" Wizard spell, the Wizard woke up one day and said "hey, this spell I bought a few days ago looks fun, let's try it out". The gap in versatility is quite obvious, even without the Wizard scribing new spells into his book: Fighter gets one bonus feat every two levels, Wizard gets two spells every level, more if he took Collegiate Wizard. And while feats like Mage Slayer can inconvenience the Wizard, spells like Fly and Solid Fog are much more of a threat, and much more widely applicable.

[Hat-Trick]

If so, they wouldn't have given the wizard all of those 'I make everyone else useless with no attack roll or save or SR check' spells.

Then why make anything else?

[Lycanthromancer]

Then why make anything else?

Why indeed.

Mostly because the core designers have no clue.

[DragoonWraith]

Then why make anything else?

If you're talking about straight-up power, there's not really any good answer to that.

The usual answer would be, ya know, to roleplay something else.

[Hat-Trick]

Yeah, but to intend for one class to completely rule the game as he stated seems sort of... counter productive for the whole Roleplay thing.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yeah, but to intend for one class to completely rule the game as he stated seems sort of... counter productive for the whole Roleplay thing.

That's why you, as a wizard, only cast maybe 1-2 spells per encounter; shut down the enemies, and let your team do its thang. (Use reserve feats or a crossbow or something after.)

Minimal output for maximum results; let your party shine. If you get in a situation that needs it, pull out all the stops and show 'em who's who.

[Demons_eye]

That's why you, as a wizard, only cast maybe 1-2 spells per encounter; shut down the enemies, and let your team do its thang. (Use reserve feats or a crossbow or something after.)

Minimal output for maximum results; let your party shine. If you get in a situation that needs it, pull out all the stops and show 'em who's who.

How is that fun for the other players if they are the clean up crew?

[Hat-Trick]

It can be fun, the point is that a wizard CAN make everything else obsolete.

[lsfreak]

How is that fun for the other players if they are the clean up crew?

Ideally, you buff them and such so that they think they're the ones doing all the work when in reality it's you. For example, you blind the enemies, which lets the fighter charge the BBEG without eating 20 AoO's and lets the sneak get in the delicious sneak attack. You just won the encounter, but they still get to do their things.

Also, your DM should design encounters so that others have a stronger role in some fights without the wizard completely dominating, but nor with everyone else being gimped. A standard example of this is a situation where you can't afford full night's rest, or where you're eating many more encounters than is standard for the day (obviously, this must be balanced, because eventually people start running out of health and the like).

[Gaiyamato]

If the All of the caster classes had half the number of spells per day per level things would be a lot more even. (same spells known however)
Sure the Wizard still knows a bjillion spells.
But he now has to chose what to fill his one or two spell slots at that level with.
So he is not likely to have prepared that spell that will counter that one particular fighter build.

Halve the number of spell sper day per level, rounding up for divine casters and down for arcane and that alone balances the game slightly in pvp.

Only problem is that npcs and encounters are often built around having a nasty wizardly type with a big bucket of spells.
So you would need to work encounter CR down a little.

This is talking SRD only ToB classes are fine and dandy on thier own.

Fighter would still be weak compared to the other martial SRD classes in some cases however. So just give one extra bonus fighter feat at level 1, 6 and 10.
I've found that works nicely.

Though in an ECL 1 game the fighter would be rather nasty at level 1.

Another idea is to place a bunch of low CR critters in each encounter for the fighter to take care of. If the Wizard takes care of them instead that gives the fighter his chance to hit the big guy.

I have not had to ever really alter a game much and still have fighters being useful. The problem with these comparisons is that people focus on pvp far too much. :P

[Demons_eye]

It can be fun, the point is that a wizard CAN make everything else obsolete.

Maybe but I DMed a game and in this game a player stoped a golem with two spells (grease and Black tentacle). The other player had to wait as the spells ran out but it was all reay to late the golem was more then half dead.

[Hat-Trick]

That's the thing. Fighters are good stuff at the lower levels when almost everything is one hit away from neg 5. After that, the wizard starts getting the encounter winners and the fighter becomes a mook. No respect for the meat shield that allowed the wizard to live through the first five levels.

EDIT: We need some ninja-be-gone around here.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That's the thing. Fighters are good stuff at the lower levels when almost everything is one hit away from neg 5. After that, the wizard starts getting the encounter winners and the fighter becomes a mook. No respect for the meat shield that allowed the wizard to live through the first five levels.

Color Spray. Far more likely to knock out a monster than a Sword at level 1.

[Lycanthromancer]

@ Gaiyamato: The sad thing is, even with just a handful of spells per day, wizards could easily still dominate.

Take a blank book with 300 pages. Cast explosive runes on each page, front and back.

Throw the book in an enemy's space and cast AoE dispel magic at minimum CL.

Watch as it takes ~1800-3600d6 force damage, no save (depending on just how many runes are dispelled). At-and-above level 5.

And it just took a single spell and lots of prep-work.

Wizards do all their work beforehand, in pre-battle preparation.

There's a reason why they're tier 1: godlike power, and able to break a game in half, even in Core-only games.

[Hat-Trick]

I'm wrong. There you go, folks. Just let the wizard solo.

[Gaiyamato]

@ Gaiyamato: The sad thing is, even with just a handful of spells per day, wizards could easily still dominate.

Take a blank book with 300 pages. Cast explosive runes on each page, front and back.

Throw the book in an enemy's space and cast AoE dispel magic at minimum CL.

Watch as it takes ~1800-3600d6 force damage, no save (depending on just how many runes are dispelled). At-and-above level 5.

And it just took a single spell and lots of prep-work.

Wizards do all their work beforehand, in pre-battle preparation.

There's a reason why they're tier 1: godlike power, and able to break a game in half, even in Core-only games.

I know.
But that is also a rather costly tactic.
If you are doing that a dozen or more times per level your WBL will be completley screwed. lol.

But your point is valid. Even with only two or three spells wizards are still badass number 1.
But it is a simple way to tone them down slightly so the gap is more of a vast bottomless chasm between them and fighter instead of a an entire ocean.

[Lycanthromancer]

I know.
But that is also a rather costly tactic.
If you are doing that a dozen or more times per level your WBL will be completley screwed. lol.

How is it costly? A 300 page book of blank sheets hardly costs anything at all.

[Gaiyamato]

How is it costly? A 300 page book of blank sheets hardly costs anything at all.

For some reason I read that as a Spellbook.
My mistake.

It only costs a tiny fraction of WBL.

that is just..... plain stupid... o_O

BTW: I am trying to make a really harsh extremely low magic world (for the pcs anyway) where fighters will be a little more useful.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116574

It is way beyond a normal game though in regards to nerfing arcane magic. lol.

[Hat-Trick]

The style is called "Way of the Illiterate." Only a complete barbarian would waste a perfectly good book.

[Lycanthromancer]

The style is called "Way of the Illiterate." Only a complete barbarian would waste a perfectly good book.

That's where the dispel comes in. Getting blown up isn't contingent on reading something, else blind characters would be safe from explosions.

[Lycanthromancer]

BTW: I am trying to make a really harsh extremely low magic world (for the pcs anyway) where fighters will be a little more useful.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116574

It is way beyond a normal game though in regards to nerfing arcane magic. lol.

Ouch. Fighters are gonna be hurting extra bad, without the magical items and healing they desperately need to keep up...

[Gaiyamato]

Ouch. Fighters are gonna be hurting extra bad, without the magical items and healing they desperately need to keep up...

There will be a few items.
Potions of Cure Light wounds and magical bandages are in abundance thanks to the only temple in the city they will start at.
But I have played a pure fighter through to level 8 in a normal D&D game with out anything more than a sword+1 and did pretty well.

Also if you look the only other Full BAB classes available are Knight and Swashbuckler. Neither of which are really as good as a good fighter in a strait fight without any magic items.
The onyl martial class from SRD that would kick ass more would be barbarian, but they are not allowed.

But fighters can use the feats for maneuvers remember, which is something that the others wont have as many options with. A level 4 human Fighter has 7 feats (including flaws) which lets him pick a lot of maneuvers and a few funky moves.
Which until levels 6/7 is going to be the closest the party has to magic. lol.

The first part of the campaign will primarily be fighting off those Orcs I made.

[lsfreak]

The problem is, the biggest problem with fighters in maneuvering. They rely - heavily - on magic items in order to reach fast enemies (most monster beyond about CR8, I'd wager, can outrun a fighter), get into position to that they can full attack, or catch up to a flying... anything (if a dragon lands, you're playing the dragon like an idiot; a fighter is flat screwed against a dragon without a method of flight).
EDIT: Though, of course as you said, if you're just fighting certain enemies it's not as big an issue. All-humanoids tends to erase the problems of speed and flight, at least.

[Quietus]

@ Gaiyamato: The sad thing is, even with just a handful of spells per day, wizards could easily still dominate.

Take a blank book with 300 pages. Cast explosive runes on each page, front and back.

Throw the book in an enemy's space and cast AoE dispel magic at minimum CL.

Watch as it takes ~1800-3600d6 force damage, no save (depending on just how many runes are dispelled). At-and-above level 5.

And it just took a single spell and lots of prep-work.

Wizards do all their work beforehand, in pre-battle preparation.

There's a reason why they're tier 1: godlike power, and able to break a game in half, even in Core-only games.

Try looking up Dispel Magic in the SRD, please.

Spoiler

Show

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:
Targeted Dispel

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.
Area Dispel

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.
Counterspell

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

Spoilered for length... but look at the bolded sections. You have two options, then : Area effect at minimum caster level, you automatically set off ONE rune (the first one checked, generally), the rest are vaporized in the explosion, since you aren't erasing the runes, you're destroying the paper they're on.

Second option : Targetted dispel, which is what you're suggesting doing. In which case you always succeed on your dispel check. Even if you cast dispel at minimum caster level and literally cannot make the check, you succeed anyway, because that's how the spell is. It's a nice trick people pretend to use, but it simply doesn't work.

[lsfreak]

-snip-

Fortunately, the rogue using UMD to cast dispel magic at CL5 is pretty much guaranteed to fail. Or your cohort. Or the sorcerer. Or the cleric.

[Hat-Trick]

And the "Way of the Illiterate" is foiled by RAW.