Vegan/Veggie discussion

[Pyrian]

What, couldn't find organic marshmallow?

Organic and vegan are distinct concepts, and while many vegans insist on organic, the two categories really don't have anything to do with each other. Anyway, marshmallows are fundamentally non-vegan, as they are made with gelatin, which is effectively meat (it comes from connective tissue). Vegan marshmallow is difficult to find, and even more difficult to find a variety that cooks into crispy treats readily.

Not so much the PB&J, though kudos on finding vegan friendly PB and J.

That's pretty easy, your basic grocery store will usually carry vegan peanut butter (ingredients: peanuts and salt) and fruit spread (ingredients: fruit and pectin). Laura Scudders and Simply Fruit are my favorites off the shelf. The bread is much more likely to be the catch!

[Coidzor]

Organic and vegan are distinct concepts, and while many vegans insist on organic, the two categories really don't have anything to do with each other. Anyway, marshmallows are fundamentally non-vegan, as they are made with gelatin, which is effectively meat (it comes from connective tissue). Vegan marshmallow is difficult to find, and even more difficult to find a variety that cooks into crispy treats readily.

*ahem* Sorry. I meant marshmallows made from marshmallow. Y'know, the plant that they were originally made from! Though, I will give you that I have no idea how the heck actual marshmallow would react if you tried to use it like that.

Agreed about that bread problem. Hmm, great, now I'm having flashbacks to when I made a friend a birthday cake only to find out she became a vegan and somehow expected me to have known this already.

[reorith]

Amesoeurs
1. welcome to the wonderful world of veganism
2. check out this link for veg-friendly eateries.
3. flip through singer's the ethics of what we eat for appropriate things to say when taking a stance of moral superiority.
4. i'm not sure how things are in canada, most of the cute vegan girls in my neck of the woods don't date nonvegan dudes so keep that in mind.

[Ichneumon]

Just wanted to post as I don't often meet fellow vegan on the web...

Hi.

EDIT: Usually when people ask me why I'm vegan I try to make it as clear and short as possible as I usually can't or don't want to go into a complete review of different philosophical theories and such, and because I know many people would not want to listen to that, so I just say something like "I'm vegan, because I don't want to be responsible for unnecessary violence towards animals."-or something like that.

Also, about the whole "moral superiority" thing. Whenever someone accuses me of it, I say that I'm not I'm not interested in lecturing them about what they do, but that I still think non-veganism is morally wrong, and saying it isn't wrong and is okay would we as weird as a feminist saying it is okay to rape women, me being an animal rights activist and all.

Most of my friends are rather easy on it and know I'm a vegan and don't drink, so when we go out they think of that and try to make it as comfortable for me as realistically possible, except when they go to a Burger King, then they assume I'm not coming....

EDIT2: also, I am aware I just said something that might provoke people. I am sorry if I insulted someone, altough I think that would be unlikely. If someone wants to talk to be about it, let'sdo it through PM or msn-chat, so as not to make this into an animal rights debate.

[reorith]

Just wanted to post as I don't often meet fellow vegan on the web...

Hi.

EDIT: Usually when people ask me why I'm vegan I try to make it as clear and short as possible as I usually can't or don't want to go into a complete review of different philosophical theories and such, and because I know many people would not want to listen to that, so I just say something like "I'm vegan, because I don't want to be responsible for unnecessary violence towards animals."-or something like that.

Also, about the whole "moral superiority" thing. Whenever someone accuses me of it, I say that I'm not I'm not interested in lecturing them about what they do, but that I still think non-veganism is morally wrong, and saying it isn't wrong and is okay would we as weird as a feminist saying it is okay to rape women, me being an animal rights activist and all.

i have pictures of cows in dairy enclosures, splay legged chickens, anemic pigs, other images of factory-farm manufactured cruelty, and a flipbook of a steer castration that i carry around in my wallet, so when people ask me why, i typically whip it out and make them cringe. if i can ruin a cheeseburger or sausage egg mcmuffin for someone while they eat it, then i know i'm doing my part.

[Ichneumon]

i have pictures of cows in dairy enclosures, splay legged chickens, anemic pigs, other images of factory-farm manufactured cruelty, and a flipbook of a steer castration that i carry around in my wallet, so when people ask me why, i typically whip it out and make them cringe. if i can ruin a cheeseburger or sausage egg mcmuffin for someone while they eat it, then i know i'm doing my part.

I don't like doing that, showing pictures, as it usually focusses on showing the atrocities of the industries and I think that gives people the wrong idea why I'm vegan, but it is always fun to make people contious about what they eat, while thet are eating it.

[xPANCAKEx]

explaining veganism for me is easy

"why are you vegan"
"i like animals so i don't wanna hurt them when i don't have to"

saying that, i have a morbid facination with cooking shows. I can appreciate good food in any form, i just find some of it morally reprehensible. Very bizarre. Don't think i could ever be with someone in anything more than a casual relationship if they ate meat to be honest - just cause too much friction.

fellow vegans - i have a question for you - do you sometimes find it difficult to date veggies aswell. I do date them, but still, it does cause problems at times... but i can be a grumpy little sod on occasion

[Serpentine]

I dislike the implication that you can't be pro-animal rights and non-vegetarian or -vegan. I am, and I believe that improvement in the conditions in the animal industries will come about because of the responsible choices of the people who actually give them money, not the people who wouldn't regardless.

More detail, Flame Master?

[reorith]

I dislike the implication that you can't be pro-animal rights and non-vegetarian or -vegan. I am, and I believe that improvement in the conditions in the animal industries will come about because of the responsible choices of the people who actually give them money, not the people who wouldn't regardless.

More detail, Flame Master?

the australian beef industry is an example of your claim. australian farmers practice natural grazing but in the united states, cattle are typically fattened in feed lots because americans prefer fasttier marbled meat. an example of supply and demand directly influence the well being of animals.

[The Rose Dragon]

syka - its more a respect thing really. I can't see myself getting into a long term relationship with someone who isn't a veggie AT LEAST without it causing friction. If im with someone long term, i want to be able to respect them after all... and dietary choice plays a part in that

And respecting the other person's dietary choice to have a balanced, healthy meal that includes animal products is not a part of that?

[xPANCAKEx]

Nope - everyone has their social standards, and this is one of my own. I just wouldn't be able to tollerate it long term. I won't go into the socio-political reasoning for it (it would soon run afoul of the boards terms of use against political discussion), but basically its just not acceptable to me for people to eat meat

I can tollerate a LOT of things, even dated girls with complete differing social and political values to my own (pseduo-socialist against her political conservatism... it was fun times), but eating meat just over-steps a line for me. Im flexible on most other things, but its just one of my core values

[Serpentine]

Because most meat eaters obviously don't care enough about animals to see them as anything other than walking supplies of meat.

This is fallacious and entirely unfair and it saddens me to see you saying so.
I eat meat and I love animals. I'm trying to increase the proportion of kangaroo in my diet because it's better on the environment. Most of them are wild, so you can't accuse people of keeping them in "feeding lots" or anything like that, and I believe it's a condition of hunting licenses in Australia that the recipient be good enough to kill quickly and cleanly. Furthermore, conditions of other food animals in Australia are, to my understanding, nothing like those in, say, the US. Kindly stop making assumptions on what I do or do not believe based on what I eat. It offends and distresses me.

[Ichneumon]

This is fallacious and entirely unfair and it saddens me to see you saying so.
I eat meat and I love animals. I'm trying to increase the proportion of kangaroo in my diet because it's better on the environment. Most of them are wild, so you can't accuse people of keeping them in "feeding lots" or anything like that, and I believe it's a condition of hunting licenses in Australia that the recipient be good enough to kill quickly and cleanly. Furthermore, conditions of other food animals in Australia are, to my understanding, nothing like those in, say, the US. Kindly stop making assumptions on what I do or do not believe based on what I eat. It offends and distresses me.

With all respect, I don't think what you see as "pro-animal rights" is the same as many vegans see as "pro-animal rights", this difference is responsible for the current tention, I believe.

Clearly you love animals. However from a vegan point of view, from the fact that you eat meat it seems to follow that you see nothing inherently wrong with unnecessarily killing animals, as using them for food is completely unnecessary. I'm not going to say that you are wrong, this is not the place to discuss it, but many, if not all vegans, view this as not "pro-animal rights" as they see being "pro-animal rights" as meaning that you consider the like interests of animals as equally important to the like interests of human beings and they see non-veganism as being inconsistent with this belief, as unnecessary killing of human beings would also be viewed as not really "pro-human rights". Most vegans I know would call your stance "pro-animal welfare", being in favor of better regulation, but not being in favor of total abolition of using animals as you don't seem to be against all kinds of animal use.

I'm not trying to offend you, just trying to explain where these different ideas and opinions come from.

[Zeb The Troll]

I never really understood this vegan viewpoint of animal rights. As a physiological omnivore, eating animals is as necessary to me as it is to a wolf or lion. My body is designed to need things that animal flesh provides. It's true that there are ways to supplement those needs in ways that don't, intrinsically, require meat, but there are studies that have convinced me that these other methods (i.e. protein supplements or beans and nuts) are inferior to actually eating meat.

Now, I'll admit that the way that I get my meat may be gruesome behind the scenes, but I assure you that were I to go about it like a cave dweller and actually hunt something without the benefit of modern technology (because, lets face it, the difference between the way I get it and the way a four-legged predator gets it is technology), it would be far more uncomfortable for the animal I'm hunting than a farm stock bovine probably has it.

So it seems to me that the issue is less the definition of "Pro-animal rights" and more a definition of "necessary".

[Ichneumon]

Nobody denies that a wild animal has a better life than a farm animal or that it is better to treat farm animals better than happens in certain factory farm conditions. You are right to say it is about a definition of necessary and if you believe you can't be vegan and eat healthy than you could certainly argue it is necessary, but if you don't believe it is, than it would be just for your convenience or enjoyment, wouldn't it? And wouldn't "not causing animals unnessary harm" be quite meaningless if it doesn't include harm that is done solely because people enjoy it? That's basically what animal rights philosophy is about, in my view.

However, I don't think I should elaborate on this, not turning this into a political debate.

[Zeb The Troll]

Nobody denies that a wild animal has a better life than a farm animal or that it is better to treat farm animals better than happens in certain factory farm conditions. You are right to say it is about a definition of necessary and if you believe you can't be vegan and eat healthy than you could certainly argue it is necessary, but if you don't believe it is, than it would be just for your convenience or enjoyment, wouldn't it? And wouldn't "not causing animals unnessary harm" be quite meaningless if it doesn't include harm that is done solely because people enjoy it? That's basically what animal rights philosophy is about, in my view.

However, I don't think I should elaborate on this, not turning this into a political debate.

See, that's my point. It is not done simply because I enjoy it. I honestly and passionately believe that I need to have meat in my diet in order for that diet to be complete. As much as I need fruits and vegetables and carbohydrates. To me, that makes the process not "unnecessary". I will concede that this viewpoint is one not shared by all, however this dovetails with Serpentine's assertion that, though I eat meat, I do not believe myself to be against animal rights. And furthermore the question "do you believe meat is necessary or frivolous?" isn't asked before judgement is passed on us meat eaters. It is just assumed that eats-meat = no-concern.

But you're right. This is too far off topic and I shall now desist.

[xPANCAKEx]

Zeb The Troll

in the arguement of quality of proteins or obtaining COMPLETE proteins i always have the trusty fallback of quinoa.... tasty, yummy quinoa. I eat shed loads of it when im training. Throw in some lentils and chickpeas to the mix, maybe some almonds too and im sorted. Anything else on top of that and im just laughing

but there are long lists of happy healthy world class vegan athletes i could spout who espouse a vegan lifestyle as part of their sucess (robert cheeke, carl lewis and ricky williams to chuck a few big names out there) - so in terms of raw nutrition and health benifits (pm me if you wanna discuss those) it has its merits

for the record though, i get a full and complete diet and i have zero need to suppliment. No shakes. No protein suppliment. No extra vitamin tablets. Just eating right... and training like hell when im in the mood

[Quincunx]

There's only one way to fuse these divergent topics of veganism and romantic relationships, yet I'm sure it's unsuitable to openly ask. . .

[Coidzor]

There's only one way to fuse these divergent topics of veganism and romantic relationships, yet I'm sure it's unsuitable to openly ask. . .

You mean, does veganism dictate the life in the bedroom? Or whether they can actually raise children from infancy?

Personally, I don't think anyone wants to know that. Or anyone wants to answer that.

V: Mine mental image photo-receptors! They are burn-ed!

[Ichneumon]

There's only one way to fuse these divergent topics of veganism and romantic relationships, yet I'm sure it's unsuitable to openly ask. . .

Most condoms aren't vegan, but you can buy special vegan ones, I have no information on whether they work less good or just as good or better.

If you are concerned about leather tools in various sexual plays, you can get fake-leather variants.

[xPANCAKEx]

Most condoms aren't vegan, but you can buy special vegan ones, I have no information on whether they work less good or just as good or better.

If you are concerned about leather tools in various sexual plays, you can get fake-leather variants.

MODS : just delete this part of the post if it runs afoul of open board policy, and my appologies (last thign we wanna do is get this thread locked down - it does seem to help a lot of people)

Condomi brand condoms are totally vegan. As for other brands - its not so much the content of the latex thats usually the issue, but the casin (a milk derivitive) used in there production. They work just as well as all brands of profilactic have to meet strict government requirements here in europe, and in the US. As for birth control pills - as with many medical pills, they sometimes contain milk products as a bonding agent, so you have to check brand-by-brand to see

And as for what CONSENTING adults do in their own bedrooms - i leave it up to them to decide if something runs afoul of their own dietary views.

Coid - raising your children vegan is 100% do-able. Obviously you have to cater to the needs of a growing childs diet carefully, but with some thought put into it, then theres no reason they won't grow up to be happy and healthy. Kids won't reject it as weird or strange if its what they're raised on

I was raised veggie by a veggie mum and vegan dad. I've tried eating meat and fish in my early teens out of the home (mah and pah said i could eat whatever i chose to out of home, just there wouldnt be any non-veggie stuff allowed in the house, so there was never any pressure on me to stay veggie) - meat for about 2-3 months, and fish for about 2 years, but at 15 went back to being strictly veggie, and went vegan by my own volition at 17. With my dad being vegan, it had been more convieniant that most of our meals were 100% vegan anyway, so dietary transition posed very little problem.

Yuuki_Jaggar - put it out of your mind for now then. Keep yourself busy so you don't think about it, or you'll make yourself anxious. You've done your part. After all - shes the interested party, she has to make the effort - if she doesn't its HER loss so bare that in mind

[Coidzor]

Hah... I'd forgotten about casein... I think that and lanolin are the two animal proteins which enabled my ancestors to survive where they did...

Though I thought allergies could develop to even artificial agents upon exposure/the way they're exposed. Since latex allergies generally develop over an extended period of time...

Well, I'm relieved then. I was kinda horrified at the apparent lack of vegan baby-formula. Especially when there were like, two vegan couples within a year and a half in the tri-state area who killed their newborns by not feeding them proper things rather than violate their principles. This was about 6 years back... Think one of them got manslaughter/criminal negligence and the other got murder initially....

[Ichneumon]

Especially when there were like, two vegan couples within a year and a half in the tri-state area who killed their newborns by not feeding them proper things rather than violate their principles. This was about 6 years back... Think one of them got manslaughter/criminal negligence and the other got murder initially....

That's really horrific. Thank God you can raise babies healthy with a vegan diet, I am not sure what I would do, in such a situation if I wasn't able to keep my child healthy feeding it vegan food.

[xPANCAKEx]

Quincunx - you can always get non-latex condoms (as im sure you already know, if you have a latex allergy), although i can't vouch how animal-product free they would be

Coidzor - those parents sound like the type of people who shouldn't be having kids in the first place. Natural breast milk is FAR better for the kid at an early stage than formula powder (this has been shown time & time again), and theres stacks of books and litriture out there on feeding growing babies vegan-friendly food. It just sounds like the parents were ignorant and neglectful - a bad combo for any potential parent. But without knowing the finer points of the cases i probably couldn't judge.

I wouldn't be suprised if there wasn't vegan baby food companies by now - if not, i smell a niche in the market that i could fill

1. let vegans have babies
2. realise babies need to be fed
3. ?????
4. Profit

excellent

Ichneumon - personally if there was a medical necessity for it, i'd raise em veggie. If i ever indulge in parenthood (and it is a privilidge), the childs welfare comes first, not my beliefs... If i can bring the childs welfare into line with my own vegan values, then even better

[Serpentine]

With all respect, I don't think what you see as "pro-animal rights" is the same as many vegans see as "pro-animal rights", this difference is responsible for the current tention, I believe.

The line I was responding to (specifically, in amongst all the omnivore-hating) was "Because most meat eaters obviously don't care enough about animals to see them as anything other than walking supplies of meat." By this logic, I would be just as justified in stating that all vegans are pro-abortion, anti-non-veterinarian medicine and an intrinsic part of the so-called "homosexual agenda", because obviously they must be against both creating more humans and saving their lives. You would, of course, be justified in taking offense. Possibly he was being facetious in that statement, but it reflects all too accurately the serious opinions being put forth before that post. As Zeb mentioned, none of you have asked any omnivores about their views on animal welfare and rights before making judgements about said views. Why, then, must I ask you to explain just what exactly you mean by "just not acceptable to me for people to eat meat", "i want to be able to respect them after all [and I can't respect someone who eats meat]", "I simply can't share my life with someone who believes you can "love" and "respect" animals and still take part in abusing animals by supporting (slightly less-) abusive industries, instead of trying to abolish animal exploitation", "I still think non-veganism is morally wrong, and saying it isn't wrong and is okay would we as weird as a feminist saying it is okay to rape women", and the aforementioned "Because most meat eaters obviously don't care enough about animals to see them as anything other than walking supplies of meat" before coming to the conclusion that you all believe that I am a horrible animal-hating and torturing morally reprehensible abomination?
If anyone wants to give me tips or resources on finding eco-friendly, animal welfare-conscious meat sources, that would be grand. So far I'm limited to kangaroo, free range eggs and a few brands of chicken. I'm interested in this system thing that lets the cows milk themselves I heard about today...

The End.

[Ichneumon]

As Zeb mentioned, none of you have asked any omnivores about their views on animal welfare and rights before making judgements about said views. Why, then, must I ask you to explain just what exactly you mean by "just not acceptable to me for people to eat meat", "i want to be able to respect them after all [and I can't respect someone who eats meat]", "I simply can't share my life with someone who believes you can "love" and "respect" animals and still take part in abusing animals by supporting (slightly less-) abusive industries, instead of trying to abolish animal exploitation", "I still think non-veganism is morally wrong, and saying it isn't wrong and is okay would we as weird as a feminist saying it is okay to rape women", and the aforementioned "Because most meat eaters obviously don't care enough about animals to see them as anything other than walking supplies of meat" before coming to the conclusion that you all believe that I am a horrible animal-hating and torturing morally reprehensible abomination?

Have you ever stopped to think about how it feels to be a vegan? No one of us, as I see it, was trying to accuse or attack any non-vegans on this forum, however you can't expect us to say that being non-vegan is okay or that there is nothing wrong with eating meat, because that is not what we believe to be true. Can you imagine how it is like to find something bad, immoral, like rape or murder, and not being able to mention it or even say something that alludes to you believing others to be morally wrong (as my posts you quoted were doing) in public or discuss anything related to you believing that such as getting into relationships as a vegan without people getting angry because you feel rape is bad? We are not here to have a public discussion about why meat eating is bad. We simply talked about how each one of us experiences being into romantic relationships with non-vegans.

[Serpentine]

Many of you said or implied that because I eat meat, I do not care about animals. I have as much right to be offended by that presumption about my character as you do if I declare that all vegans are self-righteous proselytisers - which I have, I admit, done before and which I am trying hard to rectify because of just the sort of thing you just mentioned. It distresses me that you think my diet is ample basis for you to know all you need to about what I think and believe.
To put it another way, many people believe that homosexuality is wrong on the level of murder and people who "practice" it or think it's not wrong are putting their very immortal souls at risk. Go back and replace "eating meat" or equivalent in your posts with "homosexuality", then tell me that it would be unreasonable for a gay person to be offended.

[xPANCAKEx]

i think for the sake of keeping this thread out of the "locked by mods" territory, it would be wise to take it to PMs - just sayin is all...

Serp - kangaroo is probably one of the best animal-welfare friendly meats on the planet. Kobe style beef is up there too, but that will hit your pocket book. To be honest, anytime you want quality meat from a well cared for animal you WILL have to lash out on it.

eggs are a bit of a dodgy issue - "free range" varies from country to country. In the UK, for a long time (although im not aware of the current standard requirement) it meant that animals had to be given 'access' to the outside world, which could mean a hutch of 400 odd hens having a single 1'x1' opening in some reported cases.

milk is hardly EVER going to be animal friendly, and cattle hurds generally arn't too eco-friendly with all the methane produced by ruminants.

[Serpentine]

Serp - kangaroo is probably one of the best animal-welfare friendly meats on the planet. Kobe style beef is up there too, but that will hit your pocket book. To be honest, anytime you want quality meat from a well cared for animal you WILL have to lash out on it.

That's the uber-fatty Japanese beef, isn't it? Yeah, that's pretty damn steep... I didn't realise it was extra-friendly on the cows, though I would hope. I thought maybe they'd sort of led lazy lives.

eggs are a bit of a dodgy issue - "free range" varies from country to country. In the UK, for a long time (although im not aware of the current standard requirement) it meant that animals had to be given 'access' to the outside world, which could mean a hutch of 400 odd hens having a single 1'x1' opening in some reported cases.

It's my understanding that in Australia "free range" is a step up from "barn raised". They have to get the RSPCA tick of approval (though I dislike that the RSPCA will give the tick to one "free range" product of a company that also sells cage eggs ), and they often have a bit of a description of the conditions on the carton.

milk is hardly EVER going to be animal friendly, and cattle hurds generally arn't too eco-friendly with all the methane produced by ruminants.

I don't understand what the big deal about milk is... The cows roam around a field for a while, then once a day they're herded into a barn, milked (I think mostly automated nowadays, which I suppose could potentially be distressing) which is meant to be a relief for them, then let out again. If this self-milking thingy works, they won't even have the herding stress, if it is stressful... Also, there's various projects going on to try to figure out ways to reduce or use the methane.
I do need to put more research into this stuff, obviously.

[Ichneumon]

Many of you said or implied that because I eat meat, I do not care about animals. I have as much right to be offended by that presumption about my character as you do if I declare that all vegans are self-righteous proselytisers - which I have, I admit, done before and which I am trying hard to rectify because of just the sort of thing you just mentioned. It distresses me that you think my diet is ample basis for you to know all you need to about what I think and believe.

No one of us said you don't care about animals and if I did I apologize as I was factually incorrect and offending. However I can imagine I said something that suggests I believe that when you (people in general) eat meat you abuse animals, which I believe to be the case (that's why people turn vegan, because they see non-veganism as morally objectionable) and I am affraid it is very much impossible to talk about relationships with non-vegans as a vegan and whether you accept it or not without alluding to the fact that you find non-veganism morally objectionable (for animal rights reasons) and whether or not you can accept non-vegan mates.

I don't think diet is enough to tell me everything I need to know about who you are or what you believe, but it does tell me that you are not a vegan, which is enough when talking about dating with non-vegans.

Also, I never wanted to attack YOU personally, if I ever did, I appologize.