Results 1 to 28 of 28
Thread: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
-
2009-06-29, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
[4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Will people who know the 4e PHB2 better than me please complete/correct this chart?
For purposes of this discussion, a stat is a class's "primary stat" only if the class includes a large number of powers whose attack rolls are modified by that stat. For example, Intelligence is of course very important to a TacLord, but IIRC there aren't very many attack rolls that it actually modifies. So for these purposes, I'm treating it as a secondary stat.
Defender
STR: 3 (Fighter, Paladin, Warden)
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 1 (Swordmage)
WIS: 0
CHA: 1 (Paladin)
Striker
STR: 2 (Barbarian, Ranger)
CON: 1 (Warlock)
DEX: 3 (Ranger, Rogue, Monk)
INT: 0
WIS: 1 (Avenger)
CHA: 2 (Warlock, Sorcerer)
Leader
STR: 2 (Cleric, Warlord)
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 1 (Artificer)
WIS: 2 (Cleric, Shaman)
CHA: 1 (Bard)
Controller
STR: 0
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 1 (Wizard)
WIS: 2 (Druid, Invoker)
CHA: 0Last edited by Draz74; 2009-06-30 at 01:37 AM.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2009-06-29, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Muarzibet, Siraaj
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Avengers (Striker) use WIS to attack, Barbarians (Striker) use STR to attack, Bards (Leader) use CHA to attack, Druids (Controller) use WIS to attack, Invokers (Controller) use WIS to attack, Shamans (Leader) use WIS to attack, Sorcerers (Striker) use CHA to attack and Wardens (Defender) use STR to attack.
Hope that helps.My Homebrew
Currently DMing: Heroes on a Sea of Swords - IC - OOC - OOC II - OOC III
Many thanks to the very talented Kymme for making an Avatar of my incredibly-specific D&D character!
-
2009-06-29, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
D'oh, I completely forgot the Barbarian existed somehow. Thanks for the info.
OK ... so Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, and Ranger are the only classes that really have a choice about what their primary attack stat is?
The goal here, incidentally, insomuch as their is a goal, is to study the relative importance of the stats in 4e. Particularly to figure out if any generalizations such as "Strength is the least role-specific stat" or "Dex is for Strikers" are reasonably accurate.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2009-06-29, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
You still have Avenger as DEX, not WIS like it should be.
I should probably point out that primary stats usually depend on the power source, not the party role. All Martial characters are STR or DEX, all Arcane are INT or CHA (exception: some Warlock powers). All Primal are STR or WIS, and all Divine are WIS or CHA (exception: some Paladin, some Cleric). This makes me wonder what Psionics will be, as we honestly have too many WIS classes already.
The Monk is WIS primary, STR/DEX secondary, by the way.
And yes, you are right. Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, and Ranger are the only classes who get to choose which stat to use as primary. I should also point out that STR Clerics and STR Paladins are frequently outclassed by their WIS/CHA variants.
-
2009-06-29, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
-
2009-06-29, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- UTC -6
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
With a few exceptions: Strength Paladins gain access to at-will radiant damage, an at-will accuracy attack that deals full standard damage, and a Paragon Path that turns a Paladin into a duelist beyond reckoning. (Champion of Order's Encounter attack power allows the Paladin to make a highly accurate, low damage attack that shuts down a single foe for as long as the mark placed on it remains. Divine Challenge lasts until the Paladin chooses to release the mark.)
They also gain vs. Will Weapon attacks (the Cha-din does as well, though), and a higher number of Radiant Weapon attacks (which synergizes better with Holy Avenger).
-
2009-06-29, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Strength-based paladins are much worse at tanking than charisma ones, but man do they pack a punch. Not as much as pure strikers, of course, but they're much more sturdy and have some limited healing capabilities on top of that - probably the closest 4e has to a universal character, apart from avengers and some warlords.
Last edited by Tengu_temp; 2009-06-29 at 09:23 PM.
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
Spoiler
-
2009-06-29, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Unfriend Zone
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
And warlocks. Vestige pact has a distinct leader-flavor (can't remember if they actually get healing, but it wouldn't surprise me to find they do). Fey or star pact for controlling. And most of us have heard of the hexhammer defender build (although, that's technically multiclass).
-
2009-06-29, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
I meant a single universal build - different warlock builds have different focuses and the class overall is very versatile, but separate builds? Not so much.
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
Spoiler
-
2009-06-30, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Whoops. Fixed.
I should probably point out that primary stats usually depend on the power source, not the party role. All Martial characters are STR or DEX, all Arcane are INT or CHA (exception: some Warlock powers). All Primal are STR or WIS, and all Divine are WIS or CHA (exception: some Paladin, some Cleric).
This makes me wonder what Psionics will be, as we honestly have too many WIS classes already.
The Monk is WIS primary, STR/DEX secondary, by the way.Last edited by Draz74; 2009-06-30 at 01:11 AM.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2009-06-30, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Coffs Harbour, Australia
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
I think this is in large part due to the V-frame design that some classes (Cleric, Paladin, Warlock) in PH1 have. Under the V-frame design, there are two competing primary abilities, but only one secondary ability.
eg. Cleric has Strength and Wisdom as primary, and only Charisma as secondary.
In contrast, I'm not aware of any V-frame classes in PH2. They're all A-frame (one primary ability, two secondary abilities).
If I remember correctly, Mike Mearls has been quoted as saying that the designers have intentionally moved away from V-frame classes because they don't think it works.
-
2009-06-30, 01:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Austin TX
- Gender
Avatar by me. It's Incendius Darkscale, a Good Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer, Demonskin Adept, Prince of Hell, worshiper of the Platinum Dragon (Bahamut), specializing in Fire and Lightning, wielding a staff in each hand.
-
2009-06-30, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2009-06-30, 02:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
-
2009-06-30, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Well, A-Frame will limit all classes to having at least one similar ability score. (All bards have high CHA.) Conversely, while V-Frame gives you more options in your stats, it cuts off half your available powers unless you invest in both primary stats. An INT/CON Warlock basically doesn't have access to half their class powers, and Starlocks just cry themselves to sleep at night. Or would, if they didn't have stuff like Tendrils of Thuban.
That said, I'm surprised to see DEX as the Monk's attack stat. I would have thought Psionics would use CON, INT, or WIS as it's power stats. Then again, I am rather old-school. (CON, INT, and WIS were the three stats that Psionics relied on in 2nd edition.) I'm hoping that 4e Psionics are DEX and CON, or some mix of DEX, CON, and INT. There honestly isn't enough CON classes out there, and Psionics are an easy fit.
....I think I'm rambling off-topic now. Sorry.
-
2009-06-30, 03:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Yes. Turns out this wasn't such a great game mechanic. If you play a paladin, you can try to keep three scores maxxed out, which is difficult. Instead, if you pick str or cha, you will find that about half the paladin's powers are not going to work for you, and this gets worse at higher levels as the difference increases. 4E builds are narrow enough already without that.
Wizard? Gets 4 powers per level, take your pick. Fighter? Also gets 4. Wis-based cleric? Oops, you get only two. Enjoy.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
-
2009-06-30, 04:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- Houston, TX
- Gender
-
2009-06-30, 06:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
Spoiler
-
2009-06-30, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Austin TX
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Same thing, but by power source:
Martial
STR: 3 (Fighter, Warlord, Ranger)
CON: 0
DEX: 2 (Ranger, Rogue)
INT: 0
WIS: 0
CHA: 0
Arcane
STR: 0
CON: 1 (Warlock)
DEX: 0
INT: 3 (Wizard, Artificer, Swordmage)
WIS: 0
CHA: 3 (Warlock, Sorcerer, Bard)
Divine
STR: 2 (Cleric, Paladin)
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 0
WIS: 3 (Cleric, Invoker, Avenger)
CHA: 1 (Paladin)
Primal
STR: 2 (Barbarian, Warden)
CON: 0
DEX: 0
INT: 0
WIS: 2 (Druid, Shaman)
CHA: 0
Psionic
STR: 0
CON: 0
DEX: 1 (Monk)
INT: 0
WIS: 0
CHA: 0Avatar by me. It's Incendius Darkscale, a Good Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer, Demonskin Adept, Prince of Hell, worshiper of the Platinum Dragon (Bahamut), specializing in Fire and Lightning, wielding a staff in each hand.
-
2009-06-30, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
- Location
- BFE
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
One thing I see when I look at the power sources is tendancies that include the secondary stats.
*Every Martial class uses STR in some major way: Primary for Fighters, Warlords, and Rangers; secondary for Rogues.
*Every Divine class uses WIS in some major way: Primary for everybody except Paladins, who have it as a secondary.
*Almost every Arcane class uses INT in some major way: Primary for Wizards, Swordmages, and Artificers; Secondary for Bards and Warlocks.
*Almost every Primal class uses WIS in some major way: Primary for Druids and Shamans, secondary for Wardens.
So I suspect that Psionics is going to have a stat that virtually everything makes some sort of significant use of. The leading candidate seems to be WIS, but for all we know the Monk might be like the Barbarian and Sorcerer in being the odd one out for their power source.
-
2009-06-30, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
I'd bet Con for Psionics.
Then Cha or Dex for Shadow. Dex.
And the next power source might be Cha!
I hope it isn't wisdom -- we already have 2 wisdom based power sources.Last edited by Yakk; 2009-06-30 at 11:48 AM.
-
2009-06-30, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Coffs Harbour, Australia
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
I don't think there's anything wrong with V-frame classes in theory. Unfortunately, in practice the designers presumably have neither the time nor the budget to design the full catalogue of options (eg. 4 powers per level) for each build.
Something my battle cleric has already discovered. I hold a glimmer of hope that Divine Power will address this. Otherwise, fighter multiclass PP here I come...Last edited by Colmarr; 2009-06-30 at 06:29 PM.
-
2009-06-30, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
I don't see why V-frame classes don't just focus on both of their primary attributes, thereby gaining a full suite of 4 Power options at each level. If their secondary stat isn't used for attack rolls, then who cares whether it gets advanced at every opportunity?
I guess Clerics and Paladins kinda need to pick a single primary stat to focus on because they need to focus on either an implement or a weapon. Ditto for Rangers who pick either Str or Dex because they don't think they'll be able to afford both a high-quality magic melee weapon and bow at higher levels. But that's not an inherent problem with V-frame class design. Future V-classes wouldn't have to have the weapon/implement split.
Without that split, wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable for the Ranger to focus on Strength and Dexterity, and just either avoid Wisdom-dependent Powers, or just accept that they'll only get a +3 bonus or something from their wisdom? And do StarLocks really cry if they have to focus on both CON and CHA, and only get a small bonus from their powers that have INT-based side effects?You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2009-06-30, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Some do. For example, STR-Paladins frequently focus on STR/CHA, so that their Divine Challange is actually meaningful.
On the other hand, having a low WIS (and never boosting it) keeps some of his class features weak, such as only having 1-2 used of Lay on Hands for his entire career. Other attacks, such as Fearsome Smite/Radiant Smite, are rather unimpressive with a WIS 12. Heck, most Paladins are better with powers from the Cleric (Consecrated Ground) or Sorcerer (Platinum Scales) than with their own powers, if they have low WIS.
Warlocks would basically have no added effects with INT 10, and they don't have the heavy armor to make up for the otherwise low AC bonus from their stats. While the V-Frame looks like a good idea initially, it doesn't seem to work very well in practice.
-
2009-06-30, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
Well, just because a stat isn't one of the two you boost every few levels doesn't mean you can't have it decently high, i.e. by starting out with it at at least 14. Though I can see why, in the long run, the Warlock who doesn't boost INT would have a problem with AC.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2009-07-01, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
-
2009-07-01, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: [4e] Primary stats by Class Role
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
-
2009-07-03, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008