3.5 Duelist...discuss?

[L'intrigant]

I've got a current inkling to try out a Duelist, but I thought I'd post in power gamer land first to get capsule opinions and predictions on it before I start. Now I'm set on this thing, but I want to know what the number-crunchers think about it in advance, just so I can see how powerful it'll be by the end. The main points I need to address are...

• Does a two-weapon "Florentine" style negate the bonuses?
• How does Precise Strike match up to other damage bonuses?
• What base class would be the best to work my way up to it?
• How does Duelist stack up against the other finesse PrCs?

[sonofzeal]

Does a two-weapon "Florentine" style negate the bonuses?

Nope, you can TWF with dualist, you just can't attack with that second weapon in the round you use Precise Strike.

How does Precise Strike match up to other damage bonuses?

Very poorly. Seriously, +2d6 over ten levels? Was this ever in doubt?

What base class would be the best to work my way up to it?

Swashbuckler, probably.

How does Duelist stack up against the other finesse PrCs?

Absolutely horribly. Duelist is seriously one of the worst PrCs in the game. It bans armor, shield, and Precise Strike doesn't work with TWF or with Power Attack. You're far, far better off using a Swashbuckler/Rogue multiclass with the "Daring Outlaw" feat.

[L'intrigant]

There's a swashbuckler class? God, if I knew that...

[wadledo]

I've got a current inkling to try out a Duelist, but I thought I'd post in power gamer land first to get capsule opinions and predictions on it before I start. Now I'm set on this thing, but I want to know what the number-crunchers think about it in advance, just so I can see how powerful it'll be by the end. The main points I need to address are...

• Does a two-weapon "Florentine" style negate the bonuses?
• How does Precise Strike match up to other damage bonuses?
• What base class would be the best to work my way up to it?
• How does Duelist stack up against the other finesse PrCs?

To put this bluntly, Swashbuckler from CW is the Duelists more attractive, younger, smarter, and all together better little brother.
Combine two levels of this plus three levels of rogue, as well as the Daring Outlaw feat, and you've got yourself a neat little package.
Not amazingly powerful, but nice an sweet.

Edit: Damn ninjas.

[Gaiyamato]

There's a swashbuckler class? God, if I knew that...

Complete Warrior and Complete Scoundrel.

Warrior has the swashbuckler class and Scoundrel has the feats you are looking for.... that jedi thread has done something to my brain...

EDIT:

Edit: Damn ninjas.

Levels in that can work also as the damage stacks with Rogue SA.

[wadledo]

Levels in that can work also as the damage stacks with Rogue SA.

Not as good, though the wis to AC is nice if you can get your DM to rule that the Int to AC and Cha to AC work on that as well as monk.

[sonofzeal]

There's a swashbuckler class? God, if I knew that...

It's from "Complete Warrior". Full BAB, allows light armor, gains Weapon Finesse as a class feature, and at level 3 it gains a bonus to damage equal to your Int bonus. A lot of the class features are mobility-based and without PrCs or multiclassing it seriously lags at high levels. It's generally considered on the weaker end of base classes, but still far superior to the Duelist.

The "Daring Outlaw" is a feat from Complete Scoundrel, that requires levels in both Rogue and Swashbuckler. It lets you add your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels together to determine your Sneak Attack and a few of your Swashbuckler class features, and makes the character concept really rock. Not brokenly powered to be sure, but you won't be disappointed by the results!

[L'intrigant]

Jeez, that's a bit more math than I'm used to...but I'm liking the idea of a fencer/rogue. Thanks everyone! Maybe this forum isn't totally without merit after all...

[sonofzeal]

Jeez, that's a bit more math than I'm used to...but I'm liking the idea of a fencer/rogue. Thanks everyone! Maybe this forum isn't totally without merit after all...

Hey, math is not the enemy! Math is what lets you make things work, when they don't work out of the box. Math is how you do crazy and interesting and usual things, without the unenviable frustration of seeing your character outlapped by their mundane cousins. Math takes some work up front, but generally makes the game more fun for everyone in the long run.

[AslanCross]

The Duelist is kind of sad, honestly---the AC bonus is gimped by your level and doesn't even reward you for starting with high Int. "No, you can't get your AC bonus yet."
Furthermore, it doesn't really add much in the way of damage.

Rogue/Swashbuckler does the job quite well with the Daring Outlaw feat, as has been mentioned.

[ericgrau]

Does a two-weapon "Florentine" style negate the bonuses?

The PrC says so specifically when an off-hand weapon negates bonuses. The other abilities work with TWF. But then later on your TWF might be wasted depending on how much you like precise strike.

How does Precise Strike match up to other damage bonuses?

It's actually a decent amount of damage because it applies all the time and it's given to a full BAB class (unlike other kinds of bonus damage), but one handed weapons have less damage than THF or TWF, so you lose most of your bonus damage right there.

What base class would be the best to work my way up to it?

The hardest pre-req is tumble, unless you take duelist for levels 11-20. Problem is, only rogue, monk and bard have tumble as a class skill and all 3 are mid BAB. I'd take rogue 1 for 1d6 sneak attack followed probably by fighter for feats and weapon specialization. Only 1 level in bard is fairly useless and the one thing you keep from monk - wis bonus to AC - can be replaced with a monk's belt at the same time you can afford to boost your wis with items. Rogue 8 might also work; it'll put you behind 2 BAB instead of 1 but it'll give a lot more sneak attack plus other rogue abilities.

How does Duelist stack up against the other finesse PrCs?

Honestly I haven't found a way to make the duelist work and I'm curious what others will come up with. The biggest thing you get are AC bonuses... after dumping a massive amount of AC from having no armor. And it takes 7 levels just to get a decent AC so until then you're monster fodder. You also get some bonus damage... which is negated from having a weaker weapon.

Assuming weapon spec, rage, and several duelist levels, you might get a decent character by level 15ish. Then you'll have an above average AC, par for damage and almost full BAB. Plus a ridiculously high initiative and reflex saves. But that sure is a lot of work to be slightly above the non-PrC average. And a lot of waiting. Maybe if you started a game at level 15 and picked really good gear it could at least be playable.

[Doc Roc]

The craven feat makes the swash-rogue even more deadly, and can be found in champions of ruin. Adds your character level in damage to your sneak attacks. This is money in the bank for TWF builds.

Knowledge devotion is another standby, as is ye olde iajatsu!

[Fishy]

The Cityscape Web Enhancement has that Urban Class Feature that lets you swap out Ride for Tumble. Pretty much all of the full BAB classes get Ride, and Tumble is a better skill anyway.

In the same vein, Unearthed Arcana has some Interesting Choices for Monks: You can use a two-level dip to get nearly all of the prereqs in one go, with Kung-Fu Genius thrown in for good measure. Something like Cobra Strike Monk 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Duelist would be...

... Well, terrible, probably, but different.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's the variant Feat Rogue from UA, which gets bonus feats as a Fighter instead of Sneak Attack. Definitely better than a standard Rogue IMO. Going something like Feat Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Duelist would probably be the best place to start, unless you use Swordsage. Maybe even get Martial Study and Martial Stance to take the feat Shadow Blade, which would add your Dex bonus to your damage with certain weapons.

Forget about Precise Strike and use two weapons. I'd probably go with two Broadblade Shortswords from Complete Adventurer if you plan on using Combat Expertise a lot. You could also go Gray Elf with the feat Improved Weapon Familiarity in CW and use Elven swords from Races of the Wild. In that case, get Weapon Focus: Rapier and it will apply to both an Elven Thinblade and an Elven Lightblade.

The Crescent Moon weapon style feat in CW is a perfect fit for this type of character. An Elven Thinblade counts as a Longsword for certain feats, and it would make sense to be able to use it for Crescent Moon. One of its prerequisites is Weapon Focus: Longsword, which would be interchangeable with Weapon Focus: Elven Thinblade. Since Weapon Focus: Rapier = Weapon Focus: Elven Thinblade, you should be able to use that instead of WF: Longsword to meet the prerequisite for Crescent Moon, but you could only use it with a Thinblade and not a Longsword.

Here is a build to consider, you should stagger your Feat Rogue and Swashbuckler levels, taking Feat Rogue at the odd-numbered character levels and Swashbuckler at your even-numbered character levels:

Gray Elf, Feat Rogue 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Duelist 9/ Feat Rogue +4
Feats: TWF (1), TWDefense (1), Weapon Finesse (2), EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (3), Dodge (3), Mobility (6), ITWF (7), ITWDefense (9), GTWF (12), GTWDefense (15), Elusive Target (18), Improved Critical: Shortsword (18), Improved Toughness (20)

Once you hit Duelist 7 you should always fight defensively, for a -4 to hit you'll get a base +2 AC, +1 per Broadblade Shortsword (errata), +1 for Tumble 5+ ranks, plus your Duelist class level, plus doubling your (Improved, Greater) Two-Weapon Defense bonus. At level 14 when you first get Elaborate Parry your AC will go up by +14 when fighting defensively. You'll get to add your Int bonus to damage as well as AC, and you'll use Dex to hit. Your Strength doesn't need to be any higher than 10, Wis and Cha are irrelevant, Con is always good for more HP, but you only need to worry about getting your Dex and Int scores as high as possible.

At level 12+ get the Wizard or Cleric in the party to cast Greater Magic Weapon on your swords each day to make them +3, and just worry about putting special abilities on them. Parrying is a good one to have, Wounding and Speed are also nice. Spell Storing is also good if you have someone to keep it filled with spells like (Lesser Rod of) Maximized: Vampiric Touch, Shivering Touch, Sound Lance, and Poison. Note that even if those spells are cast from a 6th level spell slot with Maximize applied normally, they're still considered 3rd level spells for all purposes including eligibility for being placed into a Spell Storing weapon.

[Doc Roc]

How much damage per hit is that dealing, Biff?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How much damage per hit is that dealing, Biff?

Should be 1d6+Int bonus, plus any enhancement bonuses and special abilities on the weapons. It's a bit weak, the build is more focused on defense than offense. If you want to deal more damage, switch the feats to the following:

Martial Study (anything Shadow Hand) (1), Martial Stance (anything Shadow Hand) (1), Weapon Finesse (2), Shadow Blade (3), TWF (3), Dodge (6), Mobility (7), ITWF (9), GTWF (12), EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (15), Elusive Target (18), Improved Critical: Shortsword (18), Improved Toughness (20)

That adds both your Int bonus and your Dex bonus to damage, but doesn't get two-weapon defense. Personally I think the benefits of the TWD line of feats should be rolled into the TWF chain, since they're almost never actually worth spending a feat on anyway. Maybe get Martial Study or Martial Stance again at 18 or 20 for another, higher level maneuver or stance.

[Doc Roc]

Hum...
I think 3 Rogue/3 Swash/5 dread commando is gonna be a lot more fun, frankly. Reflavor as needed, pick up craven, use gloves of the balanced hand....


let's see... that's..... +5d6+character level in precision damage per hit. You'll want weapon augment crystals. Loses just one point of BaB, has good hitdice, gives the entire party a +5 to initiative, untyped. Really quite fun. If you can, buy some turning gear for your DMM:Persist monkey and get him access to the Moon Domain. Moonblade, persisted, twice..... HURTS lots and only needs to hit touch ac...

1?d8+ 2/CL + 5d6 + your ChL per hit with moonblades. Casters have to pass a concentration check as per continuous damage equal to roughly the damage you dealt. This stacks, and gets completely ridiculous. It's entirely possible to force 4 or 5 DC 60+ concentration checks.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Should be 1d6+Int bonus, plus any enhancement bonuses and special abilities on the weapons. It's a bit weak, the build is more focused on defense than offense.

That's the problem. Defense in D&D is a losing proposition. You have potentially AC, Touch AC, Reflex, Fort, Will, HD, HP, movement modes, miss chance, and probably a couple I'm forgetting. You also have allies who have any of those. All it takes is for one defense to be low vs a monster's attack and all of the others are irrelevant. And the monster can attack any of the 4 players. Unless you can force a monster to focus on you, all getting good defense does is make him move to someone else. And it's hard to get good defense, because there are so many different styles of attacks. The best defense is killing something.

[Tempest Fennac]

Page 164 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD...asses-Base.pdf contains the stats for the Duelist class. (I'd be tempted to go for the Sheld of Blades variant over the normal one if you're planning on using 2 weapons).

EDIT: Now that I think about it, my Fenneckin race, http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php...sg6400#msg6400 , would be a good choice for a Swashbuckler.

[Captain Alien]

Not as good, though the wis to AC is nice if you can get your DM to rule that the Int to AC and Cha to AC work on that as well as monk.

Well, since ninja class is as underpowered as it is badass, I guess most DMs would allow that kind of fix. And it would stack with duelist bonuses, so you can have an AC of 30+ without wearing armor as soon as you have access to both bonuses and a few levels in both classes.

Maybe the ninja is not good as class, but when your 5th level ninja has a touch AC of 21 being naked you see how versatile that class can be.