D&D 3.5. Heat dangers. What a joke

[Frog Dragon]

So. Since I'm planning on including a red dragon lair in my game, I looked up the heat dangers rules and apparently 140 Fahrenheit is a lethal temperature. this translates to roughly 60 Celcius.
I go to sauna two times a week. It is warmed to about 80 Celcius and I can tell from personal experience that it is not even close to harmful even if you sit there for a few minutes.
So what's up with the heat rules then which seem to hold the position that two minutes in a sauna should knock you unconscious and three more minutes, kill you. WTF is up with that?

[AslanCross]

Try wearing full plate and fight for your survival against a giant monster for a minute inside the sauna.

[Yuki Akuma]

Heck, try doing anything other than sitting around being lazy in that sort of temperature.

Also, the steam actually does help. If you were in that sort of temperature without the steam, you'd be a lot less comfortable.

[Frog Dragon]

the rules show no mention of distinction on what you're doing and in what clothing. plus 60 Celcius is way too low a limit anyway.

And comfortable of not, it's still no justification for lethal damage. There is a vast gap between not comfrotable and lethal conditions.

[Nero24200]

What if you sit there for a few hours? Clearing a dungeon that hot is never going to take only a few minutes.

[Riva]

Did you know that 134 F (adjusted for humidity) is considered the temperature that lethal heat sickness comes into play? Like for job safety and stuff? So that temperature is literally lethal.

Furthermore, this is a really ridiculous nitpick. They picked a temperature that is actually harmful, I say good show.

[BooNL]

The rules do mentions minutes, not hours.

I frequently visit the sauna, with temperatures ranging from 80 to 102 Celcius. And yes, 102 is fracking hot, I can't stand it for more than a couple of minutes, but I frequently spend more than half an hour in 95 degrees saunas. No biggie there.

Ofcourse, you're naked and lounging around but still...

[AvatarZero]

And comfortable of not, it's still no justification for lethal damage.

That may be why it doesn't. Heat dangers don't deal lethal damage unless you actually pass out from exposure.

Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once rendered unconscious through the accumulation of nonlethal damage, the character begins to take lethal damage at the same rate.

When you're covered in steam you can stay cool as hot water evaporates off you, so an eighty degree sauna is no danger to you, but if your core temperature ever got to 40 you'd be in serious danger of death. A desert is a very different situation. The Sahara is a distinctly lethal desert for unprepared travelers, and at it's hottest it doesn't often reach 130 Fahrenheit or about 55 Celsius.

I've never been in a desert, but I reckon the 3.5 rules do a decent job. Here's an article on overheating if you're interested.

[cloneof]

Alright, I tested it.

Me and my buddy went to 90 Celcius Sauna and throwed a small ball for an hour, while wearing t-shirts, jeans etc... and Cookwares on our heads.

It made me thirsty, but nothing lethal.

[Fixer]

If you actually take a measurement of the AIR TEMPERATURE I doubt, severely, it would be 80 to 102 Celsius. That is likely the temperature of whatever is creating the steam. At 100 degrees Celsius air temperature, all the water vaporizes into steam, including whatever sweat happens to be on your skin or whatever you happen to breathe out.

You know what, just check out THIS TABLE. That is how long you can last at the various temperatures before your skin blackens and chars off of you due to 3rd degree burns.

Estimated Times/Temperatures Causing a Full Thickness (third degree) Burn in Children/Adults

For Adults

If the temperature is 160 degrees fahrenheit, it would take 1 second [to cause a third degree burn];
If the temperature is 149 degrees fahrenheit [common home boiler setting], it would take 2 seconds;
If the temperature is 140 degrees, it would take 5 seconds;
If the temperature is 133 degrees, it would take 16 seconds;
If the temperature is 130 degrees [recommended setting], it would take 35 seconds;
If the temperature is 127 degrees, it would take 1 minute;
If the temperature is 125 degrees, it would take 2 minutes;
If the temperature is 124 degrees, it would take 3 minutes;
If the temperature is 120 degrees, it would take 10 minutes.
[Adult skin thickness of 2.5mm]

For Children:

If the temperature is 160 degrees fahrenheit, it would take less than 1 second [to cause a third degree burn];
If the temperature is 149 degrees fahrenheit [common home boiler setting], it would take .5 seconds;
If the temperature is 140 degrees, it would take 1 second;
If the temperature is 135 degrees, it would take 4 seconds;
If the temperature is 130 degrees, it would take 10 seconds.
[Child skin thickness of 0.56mm]
Date from National Burn Victim Foundation


Now, these are for water temperature. Water moves heat faster than air so if the AIR was that hot, you could last longer but not indefinitely.

[AslanCross]

Okay, looking at the rules:

A character in very hot conditions (above 90° F) must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a -4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour).

Okay, I guess the OP is right, in a way. This is rather ridiculous. The temperature in this country is routinely beyond 90° F (32° C), usually worse indoors due to lack of sufficient ventilation. Today's temperature was 33° C. I spent the first half of the day walking back and forth between classrooms, carrying heavy loads. While it was pretty freaking exhausting, it wasn't enough to knock me out. Or maybe I made my Fort saves. (For reference: I am of Asian descent, have a height of 5'8", weigh 163 lbs, and exercise regularly.)

In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a -4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).

A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued.

These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the heat.

Okay, it's never been that hot here in my experience. I would think that unless one is accustomed to such temperatures, even sitting still is going to become very uncomfortable very quickly. Note, however, that there are Fort saves to be made. Noteworthy is the penalty imposed by heavy clothing or armor of any kind. I'd think the only person in a party who wouldn't have this penalty is the monk.

It's kind of weird that they used the heatstroke nomenclature, though. Heatstroke is a life-threatening condition that results in imminent death if not treated quickly. On the other hand, I'd think

Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a -4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell.

140°F/60° C is pretty damn hot. I've never been to a sauna (the people who use the sauna in the gym are slightly scary to sit with in a dim room), but as has been mentioned, I'm pretty sure the steam actually makes it bearable.

I still cannot see a fully-clothed person (most adventurers are) remaining in such conditions for long, even if they're just sitting around talking. A wizard surely wouldn't be able to prepare spells without protection (which he's likely to have anyway). I definitely would impose this damage if combat broke out in such an environment.

Note that the lava and fire mentioned here seem to only be the heat you get from being close to them. Further down in the Environment entry you see damage from actually being on fire/immersed in lava. I'd stack the damage from both the exposure to the hot air and the actual immersion.

Anyway, OP, if the temperatures really trouble you, you could always just raise them.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a -4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).

A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued.

These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the heat.

I am in Iraq right now, I am a combat medic. I wear 60 pounds of gear every day and am dismounted (walking around) frequently. In an hour I probabily drink 2 L of water a bottle of to replace electrolytes, no to mention forcing myself to eat hearty meals. Been here since January, so I am about as acclimatized as it gets for someone of European decent. One of our biggest enemies is the heat. This is reflected in the bonus given by the survival skill IE being prepared.

As a DM I would give a much larger bonus to someone who rolled the check before being exposed to a hot environment and took the requited equipment then to someone who thought about it after the fact.

For example: you need to protect your eyes from the sun (sunglasses, blacking ink under the eyes). You should not let skin exposed, paints, long selves or a robe are a must (sunburn, and if you burn your skin losses the ability to regulate you body temperature. Sunburn can lead directly to heat stroke)

You do not run in this heat. Not with body armour. Doing anything more physical then walking, and you are risking a failed fort save. The temperature have been around 120 or so, without factoring in humidity (which makes it "hotter" as sweating is less effective at removing heat from the body - the opposite of the sauna theory seen on the forums.)


The rules are correct. If you were thirsty you were taking non-leatheal damage. The fact that you even got thirsty was a danger sign. Stay in that sana until you pass and and unless somebody saves you; you are going to die. That fact is not up for debate.

People die from heat stroke all the time; in temperatures lower then 140. But fixer posted a lovely temperature chart. Any time the body's ability to cool it self is over whelemed you risk serious injury and dealth from total organ failure.

Heat exhaustion is when the body is still able to attempt to compensate. Symptoms include nausea, vomiting fatigue, headache, dizziness.

Heat stroke is when the body has failed to compensate for the heat. A "classic" sign is the absence of sweating, with hot red or flushed dry skin, but this is seen in less then 50% of cases. More often you see:
Seizures
Coma
Death
hallucinations
difficulty breathing
rapid pulse (dehydration)
agitation/confusion.

You can not "test" this by sitting in a sauna. It is a well established medical fact, and if anything the rules in D&D are liberal. The body likes to hang out @ at core temp of between 97 and 99 degrees depending on the person. If that temperature climbs to 105-106-107-108, death is going to happen very soon unless immediate & dramatic intervention happens. I am talking interavenious fluids (preferably chilled), removing of clothing, dousing in water and application of ice to groin/armpits/neck, and removal for heated environment.

[Yuki Akuma]

A sauna is more bearable than the equivalent dry heat - because you're not being blasted by pure dry heat and all the water in the air does help conduct heat away from your body much better than dry air does. Plus, you're not as likely to dehydrate with all that steam (although you'll dehydrate eventually, just not quite as fast).

A sauna isn't just 'humid'.

[Random832]

A sauna is more bearable than the equivalent dry heat - because you're not being blasted by pure dry heat and all the water in the air does help conduct heat away from your body much better than dry air does.

Wait if the air is hotter than your body temperature, wouldn't the water help conduct heat towards your body, not away from it?

[ImmortalAer]

Wait if the air is hotter than your body temperature, wouldn't the water help conduct heat towards your body, not away from it?

But not all the water sticks to you, and the individual droplets cool and then warm again from the rest that are coming up behind it (removing that ambient heat from the air), so the swirls of mist are actually absorbing heat and letting you feel it in a nice warm (...or burning.) fog.

[Yuki Akuma]

But not all the water sticks to you, and the individual droplets cool and then warm again from the rest that are coming up behind it (removing that ambient heat from the air), so the swirls of mist are actually absorbing heat and letting you feel it in a nice warm (...or burning.) fog.

More or less.

A sauna's heat distribution is far more complex than the equivalent block of metal, say.

[Draxonicar]

More or less.

A sauna's heat distribution is far more complex than the equivalent block of metal, say.

....Or breath of fire from a dragon..

[ImmortalAer]

....Or breath of fire from a dragon..

Well of course, because a breath of fire lights you on fire!

...except in Soviet Russia. But we're not getting into that.

[pjackson]

On a holiday in Egypt several years ago, one day it was 113F at 9am. We spent 30 minutes looking around a couple of temples that were on the river bank. I was not the only one who was ill for the rest of the day, despite being in an air conditioned boat the rest of the time.

[Zeta Kai]

Bottom Line: The numerical evidence (provided by the relative experts Fixer & Thrawn) indicates that the rules are a reasonable approximation of what one could expect in the real world, albeit simplified for ease of use in an actual game. The anecdotal "evidence" is deficient & scientifically unrigorous. I'm siding with the rules on this one.

There are many places where the rules don't model reality very well at all. This is not one of them. Go poke at the Diplomacy rules; those are rather borked. The Jump rules (3.5, anyway) are a bit off, too. And according to RAW, no human can run as fast as an Olympic sprinter, regardless of feats, skills, or level. Unless they are a monk.

[Kris Strife]

Eh, having been in a sauna set to 120 degrees farenheight, wearing what amounted to a pair of black plastic trash bags cut into the shape of pants and a long sleeve shirt (yes, they sell these things to induce sweating) I sat in there for 15-20 minutes, did a full 100 military style (1,2,3,1 1,2,3,2 etc) jumping jacks, then proceeded to do 30 pushups and 25 sit ups, again military style, in preperation for basic training in Texas. I was fine. Didn't eat or drink for the next two days as I was right at my weight limit, had no problems. So yeah... Mind you that I live in a part of the country were 95 degree temperatures with 97%+ humidity from May to October are completely normal.

Yes, I have witnesses to this.

[Serpentine]

The rules do mentions minutes, not hours.

I frequently visit the sauna, with temperatures ranging from 80 to 102 Celcius. And yes, 102 is fracking hot, I can't stand it for more than a couple of minutes, but I frequently spend more than half an hour in 95 degrees saunas. No biggie there.

Ofcourse, you're naked and lounging around but still...

...
So, according to you, the air directly around your body was at the boiling point for water.
...
You're mostly water.
...
Your body should have been boiling.
...

I call shenanigans and/or misinformedness.

[Kris Strife]

...
So, according to you, the air directly around your body was at the boiling point for water.
...
You're mostly water.
...
Your body should have been boiling.
...

I call shenanigans and/or misinformedness.

Specific heat. It takes time for water to boil, and I believe the human body has a higher specific heat than pure water.

[Fan]

...
So, according to you, the air directly around your body was at the boiling point for water.
...
You're mostly water.
...
Your body should have been boiling.
...

I call shenanigans and/or misinformedness.

That's why we have SKIN my dear serpentine, and sweat. To cool our internal body temp below the infernal water boiling mark. There's also the thickening agents, and the blood, and tissue in our bodies to prevent such temp's from immediately effecting us. However, his stomach should have been very upset as the water in his stomach got REALLY hot, and started re cooking the pasta he ate last week,

[Serpentine]

I'm still not hearing the bit where air heated to boiling point is anything but at the very least potentially very harmful...

[Fan]

I'm still not hearing the bit where air heated to boiling point is anything but at the very least potentially very harmful...

Not arguing that, just saying that he wouldn't be boiling. I do agree that it would be harmful at the very least in the long term, and thats with proper hydration that most people don't get.

[Fixer]

That's why we have SKIN my dear serpentine, and sweat. To cool our internal body temp below the infernal water boiling mark. There's also the thickening agents, and the blood, and tissue in our bodies to prevent such temp's from immediately effecting us. However, his stomach should have been very upset as the water in his stomach got REALLY hot, and started re cooking the pasta he ate last week,

You are ignoring physics.

If your internal body temperature is 98.5 F, and the external temperature is 100 C, there is a movement of energy from the high energy source (the air) to the low energy source (the body). Thus, if you are wet you ABSORB heat faster than if you are dry. This is why hot water scalds faster than hot air at the same temperature.

And, to point out, 98.5 F is about 37C. 100C is almost three times hotter than 37C. The amount of energy being transferred INTO the body, thereby increasing its temperature, would be massive. Adding humidity increases this transfer.

100C = 212 F

When was the last time you encountered human life existing ANYWHERE near 212 F?

[Fan]

You are ignoring physics.

If your internal body temperature is 98.5 F, and the external temperature is 100 C, there is a movement of energy from the high energy source (the air) to the low energy source (the body). Thus, if you are wet you ABSORB heat faster than if you are dry. This is why hot water scalds faster than hot air at the same temperature.

And, to point out, 98.5 F is about 37C. 100C is almost three times hotter than 37C. The amount of energy being transferred INTO the body, thereby increasing its temperature, would be massive. Adding humidity increases this transfer.

100C = 212 F

When was the last time you encountered human life existing ANYWHERE near 212 F?

Didn't he say 100 Degrees F... If he said C then I do indeed call Shenangins.

[LibraryOgre]

Eh, having been in a sauna set to 120 degrees farenheight, wearing what amounted to a pair of black plastic trash bags cut into the shape of pants and a long sleeve shirt (yes, they sell these things to induce sweating) I sat in there for 15-20 minutes, did a full 100 military style (1,2,3,1 1,2,3,2 etc) jumping jacks, then proceeded to do 30 pushups and 25 sit ups, again military style, in preperation for basic training in Texas. I was fine. Didn't eat or drink for the next two days as I was right at my weight limit, had no problems. So yeah... Mind you that I live in a part of the country were 95 degree temperatures with 97%+ humidity from May to October are completely normal.

Yes, I have witnesses to this.

So, in short, you passed your fortitude saves, perhaps due to a high Con or a Great Fortitude feat.

[Kris Strife]

So, in short, you passed your fortitude saves, perhaps due to a high Con or a Great Fortitude feat.

Except I was overweight, in less than great shape at the time (in terrible shape now. Cursed knee injuries!) and don't like going out in the heat...