[3.5] Homebrew Multiclassing Rules

[Jack Zander]

I just thought of a new way to treat multiclassing, but I'd like to know if you guys think it's balanced or not.

You level up as normal in a single class, but when you wish to take a second class, instead of waiting for several thousand XP to learn the basics of being a fighter, rogue, etc. you only pay 1,000 XP for your first level, as if you have two (or more) separate XP charts (one for every class).
Instead of gaining the bonuses of each class, you are treated as a gestalt character. Your BAB and Base Saves only increase if they are better than what your other class(es) would give you, but you gain all of the class abilities as normal. Your HPs/skills/skill points are determined from the classes that give you the highest Hit Dice first.
Your character level is equal to your total amount of XP, however, your Hit Dice may not be.
You gain character level dependent bonuses (such as feats and ability point increases) as per your total XP.

This makes multiclassing for certain character concepts a little more balanced (monk/paladin) but is easily able to break the game with cheaty-face multiclassing combos. Aside from that issue (which is really a DM/player issue), is there anything that would be unbalancing with treating multiclassing this way?

[Eloel]

WAY too easy to break. Fighter 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1 gives you MANY feats, for 3k XP, and that's only a single level spent for like 4 feats, easily worth the trade.

[Cedrass]

^ This, but if you talk to your players (assuming none of them is a jackass that might(has) already ruin(ed) a game) and tell them you want to try this out to allow for more unique characters, it could be fun.

Might steal your idea someday, when my actual campaign stops.

[Draz74]

WAY too easy to break. Fighter 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1 gives you MANY feats, for 3k XP, and that's only a single level spent for like 4 feats, easily worth the trade.

But wait, you're still a (Gestalt) Level 1 Character, when your party is up to Level 3. Essentially you've already picked up a +2 LA. So ... maybe it's not so bad after all.

[Myrmex]

An interesting concept! I've thought about implementing this, myself. I think it might extend the sweet spot of 3.5 D&D, but let them take on tougher encounters.

WAY too easy to break. Fighter 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1 gives you MANY feats, for 3k XP, and that's only a single level spent for like 4 feats, easily worth the trade.

Except you only have 10 HP, and will get wiped out fairly easy by spells like sleep or color spray. You also only have one BAB, and your saves, while all good, are still low.

While you may have a bunch of feats, they aren't particularly flashy. Your team mates will have spells like glitterdust, invisibility, or web, or 2d6 sneak attack damage, or, well, you get the idea.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That works almost exactly like 2e multiclassing and dual-classing, though that system had little freedom of where to 'spend' your XP once you'd made the choice of what classes to take.

[Reaper_Monkey]

I'd have a small bonus on the XP required for each additional multiclass you were taking, say XP required x (number of classes - 1)/10

This makes the the first multiclass 10% more expensive, and the second 20% more expensive again, thus stopping people having a bit of everything.

Also, I'd like to point out the problem with having characters "behind" on ECL, as they gain XP faster anyway. Also, if they're lower levels they would get equivalent encounters to a power threshold they no longer adhere to. Therefore you should count their ECL as their ECL for a character for their XP, rather than their actual "level".

The other thing I foresee as a clever cheat of this system is if I use a full BAB build (say fighter, the feats are fun in gestalt anyway), and use it along side a 3/4 or even half BAB build to shunt its actual BAB up.

You end up with a much more powerful character using this trick, even if its not used that much (a few thousand xp for a full BAB instead of a 3/4 is a huge difference, which would hardly dent you xp at the higher levels).

This could also be used with saves, as first levels of good saves are 2, and would always add a +1 save regardless of what else you were leveling as.

The easy way to fix this is to say that the levels always count as being in the level 1 slot so they don't stack with later levels with out actually leveling up to them.

All in all, its an interesting approach to the problem... I personally use the "defenestrate the rule and anyone who tries to now take advantage of the lack of it", which works perfectly actually.

[Myrmex]

I'd have a small bonus on the XP required for each additional multiclass you were taking, say XP required x (number of classes - 1)/10

This makes the the first multiclass 10% more expensive, and the second 20% more expensive again, thus stopping people having a bit of everything.

Also, I'd like to point out the problem with having characters "behind" on ECL, as they gain XP faster anyway. Also, if they're lower levels they would get equivalent encounters to a power threshold they no longer adhere to. Therefore you should count their ECL as their ECL for a character for their XP, rather than their actual "level".

The other thing I foresee as a clever cheat of this system is if I use a full BAB build (say fighter, the feats are fun in gestalt anyway), and use it along side a 3/4 or even half BAB build to shunt its actual BAB up.

You end up with a much more powerful character using this trick, even if its not used that much (a few thousand xp for a full BAB instead of a 3/4 is a huge difference, which would hardly dent you xp at the higher levels).

This could also be used with saves, as first levels of good saves are 2, and would always add a +1 save regardless of what else you were leveling as.

The easy way to fix this is to say that the levels always count as being in the level 1 slot so they don't stack with later levels with out actually leveling up to them.

All in all, its an interesting approach to the problem... I personally use the "defenestrate the rule and anyone who tries to now take advantage of the lack of it", which works perfectly actually.

If you're really concerned about things that don't do anything, like BAB, then just use fractional BAB and saves.

[Indon]

Senior Vorpal Kickasso approves of this houserule.

This isn't a balance complaint, but a complexity one: Say you're a Bard 3 and you take Fighter 1. Okay, so your maxed-out d6 HD is replaced, per gestalt rules, with a maxed-out d10 HD: you gain 4 hp. Now, what do you do if you subsequently take Fighter 2? How do you replace a non-maxed D6 HD with a non-maxed D10 HD?

[SilverClawShift]

I have to say, this does seem like a lot more hassle than it would ever be worth implementing. It's actually a very clever idea, but it's a clever idea with so many questions raised, so much convuluted bookwork...

My group doesn't even use multiclassing XP penalties. Your penalty for being multiclassed is not gaining the new level in whatever class you were in

[Devils_Advocate]

How do you replace a non-maxed D6 HD with a non-maxed D10 HD?

Add two hit points.

[Indon]

Add two hit points.

1D6+2 averages out to the same as 1d10, but is not a d10.

It is a viable solution to the problem, though. I was just wondering what the OP had in mind.

[only1doug]

1D6+2 averages out to the same as 1d10, but is not a d10.

It is a viable solution to the problem, though. I was just wondering what the OP had in mind.

I'd use a D5-1 to upgrade from D6 to D10. (roll 1D10, a result of 1-2=0, 3-4=1, 5-6=2, 7-8=3, 9-10=4) this gives access to the full range of increased results with an equal chance of no increase.

Spoiler

Show

statistically d6+d5-1 has 30 possible results
1-0=1
1-1=2
1-2=3
1-3=4
1-4=5
2-0=2
2-1=3
2-2=4
2-3=5
2-4=6
3-0=3
3-1=4
3-2=5
3-3=6
3-4=7
4-0=4
4-1=5
4-2=6
4-3=7
4-4=8
5-0=5
5-1=6
5-2=7
5-3=8
5-4=9
6-0=6
6-1=7
6-2=8
6-3=9
6-4=10

1's 1/30
2's 2/30
3's 3/30
4's 4/30
5's 5/30
6's 5/30
7's 4/30
8's 3/30
9's 2/30
10's 1/30

this method obviously has less chance of generating either a max or a min result but does give fair access to all potential increases if the D6 has already been rolled.

[Jack Zander]

I like everything people have said so far but I can't reply in full right now. I will answer this though:

1D6+2 averages out to the same as 1d10, but is not a d10.

It is a viable solution to the problem, though. I was just wondering what the OP had in mind.

That's what I had in mind, but my group also takes the average rolls so there was no question in my mind when I first thought of it. For group that prefer to roll their stats, I would give them a reroll with the higher Hit Die, and take the higher of the two (so leveling never takes XP away).

It seems there are some kinks, but I bet they could be worked out easily enough if we thought about them.

[Choco]

I have to say, this does seem like a lot more hassle than it would ever be worth implementing. It's actually a very clever idea, but it's a clever idea with so many questions raised, so much convuluted bookwork...

My group doesn't even use multiclassing XP penalties. Your penalty for being multiclassed is not gaining the new level in whatever class you were in

Yeah, what she said...

Multiclassing penalties: one of the many things my group has ditched in favor of more fun, more badassery, and less bookkeeping...

[Gnaeus]

Interesting. I think it would be too easy to break. Any optimized character could easily pick up the key abilities of other classes without falling behind significantly.

For example, a neutral druid 5 could take Monk 1 (Wis to AC), Cloistered Cleric 1 (turn attempts for Divine Metamagic, Knowledge devotion, 2 domains), and Dread Necromancer 1 (Rebuke attempts for Divine Metamagic) all for less than the cost of Druid 6. Is that really something you want?

[AslanCross]

Sounds reasonable, since picking up the basics of a class shouldn't be that hard. On the other hand, you're shelving all off your current training and trying to think in another paradigm, so it might not be as easy as one might think.

I do think it might get quite complicated, especially for the purposes of encounter balance between characters that multiclass and those that don't. Finally, some classes multiclass better than others. ToB classes, for example, count half the previous class levels as initiator levels as well, so a Fighter 4/Warblade 1 can qualify immediately for Maneuvers of the second tier.

The following are multiclass house rules I'd implement:
1. Throw out the silly favored class and multiclass penalty rules.
2. If you have levels in a 1/2 or 3/4 BAB class and you take a level in another 3/4 BAB class, your BAB advances as if you had taken another level in your previous class, instead of just giving you +0 BAB.

[Draz74]

Interesting. I think it would be too easy to break. Any optimized character could easily pick up the key abilities of other classes without falling behind significantly.

For example, a neutral druid 5 could take Monk 1 (Wis to AC), Cloistered Cleric 1 (turn attempts for Divine Metamagic, Knowledge devotion, 2 domains), and Dread Necromancer 1 (Rebuke attempts for Divine Metamagic) all for less than the cost of Druid 6. Is that really something you want?

That's a good argument in favor of the Cumulative +10% XP costs someone else recommended.

[Gnaeus]

Even with +10% per class, those 3 classes at level 1 are still cheaper than Druid 6 (1100+1200+1300=3600 vs. 5000) AND they don't slow his leveling in the primary class.

[erikun]

I don't think this fixes the problems you're trying to fix, while it makes the problems you're trying to avoid worse.

Consider the Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 1/CW Samurai 1. They are effectively a 2nd level character, and have the same XP as a normal 3rd level - so they've basically traded one level for 3 feats (and a few psionic powers). This "drawback" only gets less at higher levels, as the 3000 XP isn't as noticable at level 10. Heck, you could have Ranger 19/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/CW Samurai 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Bard 1 and have the same XP total as a 20th level character.

On the other hand, while Fighter 5/Wizard 5 might be roughly equal to a 7th level character, a Fighter 15/Wizard 14 really isn't anywhere near a 20th level character.

[Gnaeus]

Another question is how it affects prestige classes.

1. I assume prestige classes will count as levels of your highest level class?

2. You will be able to enter many classes much earlier (in terms of xp).

3. Many prestige classes are "balanced" through the difficulty in entering them.

For example, Druid 4/Wizard 3/Arcane hierophant 10/MTheurge3 is balanced against Druid 20 because the Hierophant is always 3 levels behind the druid in spell levels, and only catches up at level 20. Under this rule, the same build at level 20 comes to Druid 4(Wizard 3)/AH 10/MT5. Thats 19 level druid casting, 18 level Wizard casting, and only 1 spell level behind the Druid 20 throughout the level progression. MUCH stronger character.

[Jack Zander]

Consider the Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 1/CW Samurai 1. They are effectively a 2nd level character, and have the same XP as a normal 3rd level - so they've basically traded one level for 3 feats (and a few psionic powers). This "drawback" only gets less at higher levels, as the 3000 XP isn't as noticable at level 10. Heck, you could have Ranger 19/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/CW Samurai 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Bard 1 and have the same XP total as a 20th level character.

Compare those two builds to a straight wizard of equal xp and I think melee characters are now a little more viable as they have more options.

However, some have pointed out that casters are easier to break. As far as prestige classes go, I think I would just ban any prestige classes with dual progression (just like in the gestalt rules).

2. If you have levels in a 1/2 or 3/4 BAB class and you take a level in another 3/4 BAB class, your BAB advances as if you had taken another level in your previous class, instead of just giving you +0 BAB.

But then a rogue 2, bard 1, cleric 1, (3,000 xp) has a higher BAB than a rogue 3. Although, you are giving up more HP and skill points so it may work out to be balanced.

This does seem like a lot of bookeeping if you make extra difficult characters, but I bet there is an easy way to figure out the more complicated aspects such as skill points.

At absolute worst, I think the only balancing factor that is needed are players that don't wish to break the game, but rather make interesting characters that were severely under-optimized before.

[Dublock]

honestly my first thought about that was "Ok, so what happens if someone wants to craft an item if levels are based on exp?" Although I know many DMs have a house rule about that already :p

love the idea though

[Myrmex]

I don't think this fixes the problems you're trying to fix, while it makes the problems you're trying to avoid worse.

Consider the Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 1/CW Samurai 1. They are effectively a 2nd level character, and have the same XP as a normal 3rd level - so they've basically traded one level for 3 feats (and a few psionic powers). This "drawback" only gets less at higher levels, as the 3000 XP isn't as noticable at level 10. Heck, you could have Ranger 19/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/CW Samurai 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 2/Paladin 2/Bard 1 and have the same XP total as a 20th level character.

On the other hand, while Fighter 5/Wizard 5 might be roughly equal to a 7th level character, a Fighter 15/Wizard 14 really isn't anywhere near a 20th level character.

Yeah, I don't see any of those examples being the sort of problem a Druid6/monk1/cloistered cleric 1/dread necro 1 would be.

[Indon]

Yeah, I don't see any of those examples being the sort of problem a Druid6/monk1/cloistered cleric 1/dread necro 1 would be.

Well, you have to compare them to the alternatives.

In that case, Druid 7.

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, I'll take the Druid 6/DN1/CC1/Mnk1 over druid 7 any day

Persistant Bite of the Werewolf, Persistant Thornskin (or Infestation of maggots, or Quillfire, or swift fly) Improved Grapple, Knowledge devotion, and wisdom + to AC is a great trade for 2 4th level spells. I also get a better reflex save, 2 domains (chosen for their abilities) and about 8 extra first level spells. And at 3600 exp behind, I'll get level 7 long before you get level 8.

Some things are worth even a druid level.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I'll take the Druid 6/DN1/CC1/Mnk1 over druid 7 any day

Persistant Bite of the Werewolf, Persistant Thornskin (or Infestation of maggots, or Quillfire, or swift fly) Improved Grapple, Knowledge devotion, and wisdom + to AC is a great trade for 2 4th level spells. I also get a better reflex save, 2 domains (chosen for their abilities) and about 8 extra first level spells. And at 3600 exp behind, I'll get level 7 long before you get level 8.

Some things are worth even a druid level.

To get all that, you also need to burn feats. A straight Druid 7 could have e.g. Greenbound Summoning + Ashbound + Augment Summoning over you, and in one level he'll have far superior Wildshapes in Large Wildshape. It's a tradeoff; I'm not sure which would win on an arena to be honest. Note that you don't have extra HD so your Wildshape is more limited in that sense too. You've got a lot, but you're giving up a lot too.

[Gnaeus]

To get all that, you also need to burn feats. A straight Druid 7 could have e.g. Greenbound Summoning + Ashbound + Augment Summoning over you, and in one level he'll have far superior Wildshapes in Large Wildshape. It's a tradeoff; I'm not sure which would win on an arena to be honest. Note that you don't have extra HD so your Wildshape is more limited in that sense too. You've got a lot, but you're giving up a lot too.

Monk 1/Druid 19 isn't a bad build. This just gives it freebies. You seriously think that the augment summoning tree is going to be better than persist DMM with 2 classes full of turn/rebuke attempts? How many feats am I really burning? Did I take planning and Undeath domains for free extend spell and + 8 more turning attempts (or luck for a save reroll and Law devotion for better AC or to hit)? And remember, an arena isn't always the best test for broken. You need to burn high level spells for every fight you hope to win with summonings, and you need an entire round + to do it. Persist brokenness lasts all day, every fight, even if I am surprised.

Or I could go the feat starved route and take Quicken DMM instead. I never heard anyone try to argue that DMM was a less than optimal use of feats before, and its better for this kind of rule than basic cleric, because the druid isn't giving up as much by having a high charisma.

Sure, in 1 level you will have the superior large wildshape. You still can't beat me in a grapple, (improved grapple, +6 str Persistant Bite of the Wereboar). He probably can't hit me (+4 AC wisdom, +6 NA Persistant BotWearboar). And don't forget that my pet shares my buffs. And I'm not even a full level behind. Shall we make it a full level and throw in Crusader 1, for some stances and second level strikes?

And the farther up we go, the less behind in xp I will get. By level 10 I am only 1/2 level behind the straight druid again.

[Jack Zander]

Yeah, like I said, it's easy to make a completely broken caster with this. Aside from that, are there any other glaring issues? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to say to my players, "hey, don't try to break the game with this," and it'd all work out fine, as long as there isn't anything we overlooked.

I could see a useful monk 10/paladin 4/fighter 2 or a sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10 or even simple things like a rogue x/ bard x.

[Gnaeus]

I just thought of a new way to treat multiclassing, but I'd like to know if you guys think it's balanced or not.

This makes multiclassing for certain character concepts a little more balanced (monk/paladin) but is easily able to break the game with cheaty-face multiclassing combos. Aside from that issue (which is really a DM/player issue), is there anything that would be unbalancing with treating multiclassing this way?

Yeah, like I said, it's easy to make a completely broken caster with this. Aside from that, are there any other glaring issues? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to say to my players, "hey, don't try to break the game with this," and it'd all work out fine, as long as there isn't anything we overlooked.

So, you recognize that it is easy to make broken characters with it, and you want to know if it is balanced? Of course it isn't balanced. Its broken.

Any broken thing can be acceptable in play if the players choose not to abuse it. Shapechange, Planar shepherd, anything can be acceptable in a game if the players and the DM agree on what level to play it at. Doesn't mean its balanced, only that it works in that game.

I think you should give more thought to what constitutes "cheaty-face multiclassing combos". There is nothing "cheaty" with adding cleric and monk to druid under the rules you gave. Your problem will come when your fighter has half a dozen classes under his belt and your Wizard wants to add something and its suddenly broken. Honestly, I can't think of any class that wouldn't benefit from a 1 level cleric dip for 1000 xp.